DSD versus PCM - Is DSD really better or is it a 'myth'

There is a great article in The Absolute Sound by Anthony Cordesman, one of my favorite reviewers. The article is about the Burmester 151 music server, but he mentions the fallacy of some hi-res. The quality of the recording and or mike, is more important than the sampling rate that a lot are caught up on.
 
All begin from microphone.

Sample rate not solving problems as itself. Only in complex with other decissions.
 
Geardaddy said:
Other than pointing out the obvious, anything to add? I have a 3 yr old and 9 month old. does not happen as much as I would like. That being said, threads are for entertainment purposes at the tail end of the day....:popcorn:
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I could add plenty from what I have learnt in a polite manner, it's not worth the time. I'd rather give a few hundred to a refugee.

I've done the dsd/pcm/hi-res/vinyl/cables/digital/analog/isolation/compound/material/speakers...blahdy blah blah with what most would consider end of game components etc. All it is, is chasing the dragons tail in the tale. Me, I just like to listen to the music & sometimes it's on my sonos
 
A few pointers:

1. I am currently evaluating Bel Canto 3.7 DAC - it is breaking in - but from the first note - I said "wow" and they consider DSD as just another file type, not a format
2. I have picked up Exogal Comet with external power supply - talk about price to performance leader - they do DSD over PCM.
3. Next in line is the Lampi - I need to pull it out and do some listening over the weekend. Of course it has a separate DSD module - I think it is a smart move.
4. My reference is Allnic D5000 DHT - I have not heard anything better. It does PCM, DSD or on the fly conversion at hardware level to 24/192 or DSD. It really depends - but converting to DSD in the DAC did sound quite good - I almost prefer it as default.
5. Paul at Tube Research Labs - used to make fun of me saying that I am one of those people who like High Rez stuff ...lol and he has done work and developed products from recording, mastering to pressing SACDs to modifying various CD players / DACs and he came out with his own high rez DAC years ago. According to him - it is all in implementation ... and getting the music right. For him - he is fine with red book ... we seem to be splitting hair according to him. For him - nothing comes close to tape.
6. Having said that, IME - DSD files do sound less digital than PCM - especially in simple vocal stuff. I like cookie's dsd downloads - but there is nothing complex and she hard does any editing if any. So DSD to PCM editing stuff almost does not happen in her labels. I enjoy PCM just as much.

What good will this discussion bring us? As it is, we have almost lost the next generation of people with our analog / digital discussion or cables matter or don't matter discussion. I feel that pain, as an owner of high end audio business.

In light of that, yet another DSD vs PCM or Analog vs Digital thread really will not help spread the love of high end ...

Enjoy what you like, however you like ...

Cheers
Sunil
 
I don't see any problem in DSD editing. In my software practically applied algorithms volume adjusting (0.1 dB step), click supression, optimization for DAC.

DSD editing is only available computing resources matter. There problems with quality loss no more than with usual PCM editing.
 
Like the days of cassette decks, why not have all format playback capability, even if it means having different playback engines in the same box?

I, like many, want it all, DSD AND PCM at as many rates as possible. Hell, I would like general multibit DS playback too like say 8bit 5.6mhz or any such automatically switchable format.
 
How could I ever love DAB as much as my 8 year old iPod? :dunno: I am at a loss. :)
 
bzr said:
I could add plenty from what I have learnt in a polite manner, it's not worth the time. I'd rather give a few hundred to a refugee.

I've done the dsd/pcm/hi-res/vinyl/cables/digital/analog/isolation/compound/material/speakers...blahdy blah blah with what most would consider end of game components etc. All it is, is chasing the dragons tail in the tale. Me, I just like to listen to the music & sometimes it's on my sonos
Click to expand...

Sonos does ambient music duty in the office and at home and is enjoyable. 95% of my listening is done that way.
 
careaudio said:
A few pointers:

1. I am currently evaluating Bel Canto 3.7 DAC - it is breaking in - but from the first note - I said "wow" and they consider DSD as just another file type, not a format
2. I have picked up Exogal Comet with external power supply - talk about price to performance leader - they do DSD over PCM.
3. Next in line is the Lampi - I need to pull it out and do some listening over the weekend. Of course it has a separate DSD module - I think it is a smart move.
4. My reference is Allnic D5000 DHT - I have not heard anything better. It does PCM, DSD or on the fly conversion at hardware level to 24/192 or DSD. It really depends - but converting to DSD in the DAC did sound quite good - I almost prefer it as default.
5. Paul at Tube Research Labs - used to make fun of me saying that I am one of those people who like High Rez stuff ...lol and he has done work and developed products from recording, mastering to pressing SACDs to modifying various CD players / DACs and he came out with his own high rez DAC years ago. According to him - it is all in implementation ... and getting the music right. For him - he is fine with red book ... we seem to be splitting hair according to him. For him - nothing comes close to tape.
6. Having said that, IME - DSD files do sound less digital than PCM - especially in simple vocal stuff. I like cookie's dsd downloads - but there is nothing complex and she hard does any editing if any. So DSD to PCM editing stuff almost does not happen in her labels. I enjoy PCM just as much.

What good will this discussion bring us? As it is, we have almost lost the next generation of people with our analog / digital discussion or cables matter or don't matter discussion. I feel that pain, as an owner of high end audio business.

In light of that, yet another DSD vs PCM or Analog vs Digital thread really will not help spread the love of high end ...

Enjoy what you like, however you like ...

Cheers
Sunil
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Sunil, while Paul poopoo's Hi Rez (and there are some valid arguments behind such a position), he is still a tapehead. Everything else is a joke in his opinion. As for losing the next generation, I don't think it has anything to do with our grandiose yammering online. Its more about the intersection of technology, convenience, and in some ways the financial pressures many of them face. If you leave college with $200,000 in debt and poor job prospects, high priced audio gear is low down on the priority list. I am however still hopeful. Technology will continue to march forwards with the very real prospect of having the archaic, 50-100 yr old designs that we all cherish supplanted by something from Bestbuy. I have spoken to engineers in other industries who scoff at the lack of true engineering innovation in hi end audio. The R&D budgets for most audio companies supports little more than DIYish fiddling and the reworking of old designs. It is what it is I guess. Paradoxically, some of the kids in skinny jeans are buying up vinyl and not DSD downloads....:congrats:
 
I cringe going to audio society meetings - same "old" people group together and talk about the same old audio wars and tell everyone how their stuff sounds so much better or how more expensive stuff is a rip off or if it is cheap it is better or their stuff is better than everyone else, cables matter or they don't matter or vinyl is better than digital and now throw under the train DSD vs PCM blah blah - I think that puts off people (including me) - especially younger people. I agree with you that younger generation - apart from financial constrains - look for portability first and then looking cool of course - sound quality is left for the "audiophiles" who spend awful lot of time listening to cables or reading audio publications and such ....

back to the original or yet another format or file-format (as Bel Canto puts it ...) thread.

Cheers
Happy Friday!
 
careaudio said:
I cringe going to audio society meetings - same "old" people group together and talk about the same old audio wars and tell everyone how their stuff sounds so much better or how more expensive stuff is a rip off or if it is cheap it is better or their stuff is better than everyone else, cables matter or they don't matter or vinyl is better than digital and now throw under the train DSD vs PCM blah blah - I think that puts off people (including me) - especially younger people. I agree with you that younger generation - apart from financial constrains - look for portability first and then looking cool of course - sound quality is left for the "audiophiles" who spend awful lot of time listening to cables or reading audio publications and such ....

back to the original or yet another format or file-format (as Bel Canto puts it ...) thread.

Cheers
Happy Friday!
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You cringe. I made the mistake of taking my wife to Axpona a few years ago, and she cringed at the sight of in her words "all the vaguely creepy, disheveled, and old audiophiles slithering about." I have still yet to hear the end of that.

Bel Canto is an excellent company. My first "audiophile" dac was the old 1.1. Very good value for the money and provided a fine front to my Merlin VSMms (Bobby RIP)....
 
I took my wife (who is 46) with me to this year's THE Show in Irvine and she had a very enjoyable time, much better than she had expected (she had attended RMAF for about 2 half-days in 2012). It's true she may have a higher tolerance than most for creepy people, but there is definitely a difference in attendees at different shows. Most comments about THE Show Newport Beach (Irvine) mention the greater numbers of women and young people than at many other audio shows.
 
rbbert said:
I took my wife (who is 46) with me to this year's THE Show in Irvine and she had a very enjoyable time, much better than she had expected (she had attended RMAF for about 2 half-days in 2012). It's true she may have a higher tolerance than most for creepy people, but there is definitely a difference in attendees at different shows. Most comments about THE Show Newport Beach (Irvine) mention the greater numbers of women and young people than at many other audio shows.
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This is an interesting topic guys. Maybe someone can start a women and HiFi discussion topic.

I remember sitting down next to two lovely young ladies (probably in their early 30's) at Axpona this year. We were hearing the same demo.

I must admit, I thought their husbands would appear around the corner. But then I heard the one say to the other "how do you think these would sound with my McIntosh amp?"

I struck up a conversation and was delighted to talk shop with them. They had both had some amazing systems presently and in the past.

It's a pity we don't see more of this. But getting our significant others interested is a step in the right direction.

Either of you care to start a thread on this?
 
Which one is better, DSD or PCM?

There's a very practical answer: of course PCM is much better. There are at least 1000 x more music titles available in PCM, on the old trusted CD format, than on DSD.

Or are audiophiles not music lovers? Do they care more about sound than about available music? Do they care more about the best possible sound in absolute terms than about the best possible sound from the format that carries most of all the recorded music?
 
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