DSD versus PCM - Is DSD really better or is it a 'myth'

[wisnon]

Not of the 50 or so tapes I have. Come listen for yourself. Could they make a tape sound worse than DSD? Sure!

No one is arguing the impossible, but we are stating findings based on actual experience. Tape sounds best, but it's a huge PITA and limited.

There aren't a lot of folks here besides myself, Myles, Mike, Dan, Jock and a few others that have all four sources. We can argue all day, but unless you have the four sources in your system and the same recordings to compare, it's a mute point.

Most of the Industry insiders I know share the same view. Sounds best but limited, pricey and PITA to play, tough one reel can last a long time between changes.

I know someone selling some tapes as he went for a wireless all in one music system.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

I agree with Mike. If I compare the same recording on tape vs vinyl vs digital, even DSD, to me and anyone who has heard the comparison, agrees, tape just sounds better.

Take for example, Jacintha, Here's to Ben. I have it in every format. To my ears, the tape sounds the absolute best, and certainly the most natural. But you know what, the DSD is DAMN close. Damn close. The vinyl has a certain magic about it as well. The PCM - to my ears - gets the short end of the stick.

I'm sure we can all find examples where the DSD may sound the best or the PCM might sound the best, but it's my experience, where I've been able to compare multiple formats, tape is king.

But tape is a PITA, expensive and almost impossible to find any kind of volume of albums.

To me, DSD gets me damn close and I can use my iPad to control my Aurender and not even leave the chair!

Final thought: unless you have the ability, in your own system, to compare tape vs vinyl vs DSD vs PCM, you really shouldn't be making "troll" statements. I remember a certain FlexibleAudio (who isn't seeming very Flexible at the moment), bark and bite at all the vinyl guys. He was convinced digital was king. Now he has heard and experienced vinyl and it's all the rage for him (and rightly so). If you think vinyl is good, don't listen to tape.

Put your system together, start listening, tell us what YOU hear and for heavens sake, stop picking fights on every topic. You don't even have your system up and running, let alone these four sources to compare. Geesh.

Wow Mike a lot of pent up frustration there. Did you read my post? I too prefer tape > vinyl > dsd > pcm and so do most of my friends but that has nothing to do with my point. It is a subjective view and I am not omniscient or ignorant enough to make an absolute claim and would never do so. I felt AJ was taking an unnecessary drubbing for stating an obvious. Its opinion not fact. I disagree with his preferences but not the logic of his point.

Regarding the rest of your insults. I have had my systems up and running since 1975. Vinyl constituted the first 10 years of that time. As I have told you several times my current system is Rotel and B&W and I listen to it daily. Why do you care and what does it have to do with my view about the folly of making absolute statements about formats? When on earth did I ever argue digital is superior to vinyl? I was considering buying my digital front end first in my new system for a while but never made any such comments. You have me confused with someone else.

What I will do is call out BS when I see it. I certainly admit, that seems to be a problem around here some times.

 

[wisnon]

What I will do is call out BS when I see it. I certainly admit, that seems to be a problem around here some times.

I certainly agree with this! Hahaha

 

[Mike]

Wow Mike a lot of pent up frustration there. Did you read my post? I too prefer tape > vinyl > dsd > pcm and so do most of my friends but that has nothing to do with my point. It is a subjective view and I am not omniscient or ignorant enough to make an absolute claim and would never do so. I felt AJ was taking an unnecessary drubbing for stating an obvious. Its opinion not fact. I disagree with his preferences but not the logic of his point.

Regarding the rest of your insults. I have had my systems up and running since 1975. Vinyl constituted the first 10 years of that time. As I have told you several times my current system is Rotel and B&W and I listen to it daily. Why do you care and what does it have to do with my view about the folly of making absolute statements about formats? When on earth did I ever argue digital is superior to vinyl? I was considering buying my digital front end first in my new system for a while but never made any such comments. You have me confused with someone else.

What I will do is call out BS when I see it. I certainly admit, that seems to be a problem around here some times.

Paul - if you prefer GENERALLY (as do I) tape > vinyl > dsd > pcm - then we can definitely agree on something. Of course, it's possible to make any format sound better than the other. But I haven't heard a CD beat my tape - ever, never ever. In fact, I HAVE recorded my CD's to tape and the CD recorded to tape sounds better than the same CD played through any of my players.

I am not insulting you, but frankly, people are sick and tired of the constant arguing by a select few. Discussions, disagreements are fine, but most of these threads turn into the proverbial beating of a dead horse.

I can't speak for everyone, but I like to read threads about "went and heard the new Magico S7's and compared to the S5's, you could hear X, Y, Z." OR "I've been comparing the AMG V12 to the Transrotor and with the right setup, like a Benz cart, the V12 delivers X, Y, Z over the Transrotor."

Threads with constant arguing about absolutes and fighting the impossibles is just silly. It's like having a Ferrari vs Ford Fiesta thread. Someone says "well, a Ferrari F430 will always beat a Ford Fiesta in a 0-60 mph race" - most people think "yeah, that's true!", but then there is always one guy who says, "well, what if the Ferrari was loaded down with cement, would it still win?" These types of arguments are just stupid.

Look, I'll be brutally honest, I field PM's from people all day complaining about a select few on this site who like to make every thread into an ego, chest pounding argument. We have almost 6000 members, we get 800,000 hits a month from all over the world, there are a lot of people who don't post or don't post often. But they are sure reading and they think these types of threads are nothing more than pounding chests and ego thumping.

Let's get back to discussing actual real life experiences, preferences, interesting findings, heck, even measurements and most importantly music, rather than "if the Ferrari was loaded down with cement" arguments. Yes, I'm sure there are examples where the digital sounds better than the tape, but I sure haven't heard any myself and I sure don't see anyone listing any actual real life examples.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Paul - if you prefer GENERALLY (as do I) tape > vinyl > dsd > pcm - then we can definitely agree on something. Of course, it's possible to make any format sound better than the other. But I haven't heard a CD beat my tape - ever, never ever. In fact, I HAVE recorded my CD's to tape and the CD recorded to tape sounds better than the same CD played through any of my players.

I am not insulting you, but frankly, people are sick and tired of the constant arguing by a select few. Discussions, disagreements are fine, but most of these threads turn into the proverbial beating of a dead horse.

I can't speak for everyone, but I like to read threads about "went and heard the new Magico S7's and compared to the S5's, you could hear X, Y, Z." OR "I've been comparing the AMG V12 to the Transrotor and with the right setup, like a Benz cart, the V12 delivers X, Y, Z over the Transrotor."

Threads with constant arguing about absolutes and fighting the impossibles is just silly. It's like having a Ferrari vs Ford Fiesta thread. Someone says "well, a Ferrari F430 will always beat a Ford Fiesta in a 0-60 mph race" - most people think "yeah, that's true!", but then there is always one guy who says, "well, what if the Ferrari was loaded down with cement, would it still win?" These types of arguments are just stupid.

Look, I'll be brutally honest, I field PM's from people all day complaining about a select few on this site who like to make every thread into an ego, chest pounding argument. We have almost 6000 members, we get 800,000 hits a month from all over the world, there are a lot of people who don't post or don't post often. But they are sure reading and they think these types of threads are nothing more than pounding chests and ego thumping.

Let's get back to discussing actual real life experiences, preferences, interesting findings, heck, even measurements and most importantly music, rather than "if the Ferrari was loaded down with cement" arguments. Yes, I'm sure there are examples where the digital sounds better than the tape, but I sure haven't heard any myself and I sure don't see anyone listing any actual real life examples.

Well I hear you Mike, but I guess the question becomes what do you want your forum to be. What do you propose happens when someone makes a patently false statement? We all stand by and say nothing so some members are wrongly informed. Believe it or not I get emails thanking me for clearing up issues. I feel your Ford Fiesta analogy is completely off base. My challenges in this regard are well documented and I believe involve no such absurdity:

--DHT's test flat from 20hz to 20kh
--Its safe to have a hot black (negative) terminal on a power amp
--Balanced is inherently superior design even in a zero cmnr environment
--Usb is superior to I2S as a source to dac transmission
--So and so is the "only expert" in the entire field usb interface design
--DSD is proven superior to PCM...Period
--Etc. Etc.

I fear your approach is one that nourishes spin and mercantilism at the expense of accuracy and that's ok; it just ain't for me.

 

[Mike]

Paul - nobody is creating spin, but help me understand, who has made patently false statements and if patently false statements have been made, have you been able to counter those statements with real life examples?

If someone says DHT's test flat from 20hz to 20khz, who am I to argue? I haven't tested them. No clue. Don't care. That kind of nonsense would cut into my listening time! But, have you? Have you run your own tests?

If someone says USB is superior to I2S, I think its splitting hairs. I have compared the two? I have. And in the example of the PS Audio DAC, I found i2s did sound better with one of the firmware releases, but it sounded worse with the others. So, in this example, it depends. But GENERALLY SPEAKING, I think its not a terrible argument to say USB is superior to I2S. Again, have you had a USB and I2S DAC in your system to compare?

There is no substitute for experience. Otherwise its just a thesis.

 

[hoosiertom]

Paul,

Just let it go... Mike is right !

Back to regularly scheduled programming !!

Great system BTW..

All the best,

Tom SE MI

Well I hear you Mike, but I guess the question becomes what do you want your forum to be. What do you propose happens when someone makes a patently false statement? We all stand by and say nothing so some members are wrongly informed. Believe it or not I get emails thanking me for clearing up issues. I feel your Ford Fiesta analogy is completely off base. My challenges in this regard are well documented and I believe involve no such absurdity:

--DHT's test flat from 20hz to 20kh
--Its safe to have a hot black (negative) terminal on a power amp
--Balanced is inherently superior design even in a zero cmnr environment
--Usb is superior to I2S as a source to dac transmission
--So and so is the "only expert" in the entire field usb interface design
--DSD is proven superior to PCM...Period
--Etc. Etc.

I fear your approach is one that nourishes spin and mercantilism at the expense of accuracy and that's ok; it just ain't for me.

 

[mep]

Mike-I agree with what you said. It's pointless for people who don't own all the formats and listen to them regularly to argue against the findings of those who do.

one correlation I have seen from numerous forums is the bigger the troll, the more challenged their system is in terms of performance.

 

[Myles B. Astor]

Wow Mike a lot of pent up frustration there. Did you read my post? I too prefer tape > vinyl > dsd > pcm and so do most of my friends but that has nothing to do with my point. It is a subjective view and I am not omniscient or ignorant enough to make an absolute claim and would never do so. I felt AJ was taking an unnecessary drubbing for stating an obvious. Its opinion not fact. I disagree with his preferences but not the logic of his point.

Regarding the rest of your insults. I have had my systems up and running since 1975. Vinyl constituted the first 10 years of that time. As I have told you several times my current system is Rotel and B&W and I listen to it daily. Why do you care and what does it have to do with my view about the folly of making absolute statements about formats? When on earth did I ever argue digital is superior to vinyl? I was considering buying my digital front end first in my new system for a while but never made any such comments. You have me confused with someone else.

What I will do is call out BS when I see it. I certainly admit, that seems to be a problem around here some times.

How can it be subjective when you take a master or second generation tape, transfer it via PCM or DSD and compare it to the master? Either the digital file is a mirror image of the tape or it isn't. It doesn't get simpler nor more objective. Many of us have done that.

 

[jdandy]

 

[Myles B. Astor]

I've heard plenty tape over my lifetime, it's not exactly a new format.
Now you're right, I don't currently own any form of tape, be that open reel, cassette or 8-track.
I think I may have a VCR buried somewhere.:lol:

I have a better idea. How about we go to the studio and direct compare the tape vs digital masters that were recorded simultaneously. Same feeds. I already have. You game?


By the exact same token, could they make digital (or vinyl) sound worse than tape....yep. IOW, it's not the format per se....


Moot.
We all have our preferences.

cheers,

AJ

Old news. Been there done that, as have others here. Certainly know MikeL has and it has zero to do with preferences. And we are talking best cases scenarios.

I've certainly done the comparison where a master or second generation tape was compared to a PCM or DSD file (made using the best A/D available) made from the same tape. The tape was replayed using an Ampex/Aria while the files were replayed using one of the finest D/A (Playback Designs) in a good system. Now either the digital file sounds like the tape it was copied from or it doesn't. Simple as that. Is it a mirror image or isn't it. NO preferences are involved. And the answer in my experience is no the digital file is not a perfect copy.

One time was done using 1X DSD vs the second generation tape. There were significant differences at the frequency extremes (esp. the upper octaves), in dimensionality of instruments and information density. I haven't done the 2X DSD copies vs. the tape but people say it's closer (maybe MikeL can chime in here.) I also have quad DSD files of tape sitting here to do the comparison vs. the tape but the DAC that is supposed to do up to 8X DSD won't read quad DSD so I'm stuck at present.

And I've also done the same with Jeff Joseph making 24/192 copies of my master or second generation tape and again while good, they are far from a mirror image of the original recording. You can actually hear the 24/192 files if you visit Jeff Joseph's room at RMAF. They are darned good and I'd say better than 99 pct. of the commercial stuff on the market.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Paul - nobody is creating spin, but help me understand, who has made patently false statements and if patently false statements have been made, have you been able to counter those statements with real life examples?

If someone says DHT's test flat from 20hz to 20khz, who am I to argue? I haven't tested them. No clue. Don't care. That kind of nonsense would cut into my listening time! But, have you? Have you run your own tests?

If someone says USB is superior to I2S, I think its splitting hairs. I have compared the two? I have. And in the example of the PS Audio DAC, I found i2s did sound better with one of the firmware releases, but it sounded worse with the others. So, in this example, it depends. But GENERALLY SPEAKING, I think its not a terrible argument to say USB is superior to I2S. Again, have you had a USB and I2S DAC in your system to compare?

There is no substitute for experience. Otherwise its just a thesis.

Alright lets not argue (unless of course you want to .) My points on things like dht's and usb/I2S go to the basic science of things like plate resistance and packet noise, but no point in going back into all that if these things aren't important.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

How can it be subjective when you take a master or second generation tape, transfer it via PCM or DSD and compare it to the master? Either the digital file is a mirror image of the tape or it isn't. It doesn't get simpler nor more objective. Many of us have done that.

Myles, I can't explain it but it exists. Some people will remarkably prefer PCM in the scenario you addressed and that is a subjective measure of their brain chemistry. I may not, but I am not going to disrespect them because they like the "bite" of PCM as I often hear them call it.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Old news. Been there done that, as have others here. Certainly know MikeL has and it has zero to do with preferences. And we are talking best cases scenarios.

What studio? I thought you said you did prefer tape?

I've certainly done the comparison where a master or second generation tape was compared to a PCM or DSD file (made using the best A/D available) made from the same tape. The tape was replayed using an Ampex/Aria while the files were replayed using one of the finest D/A (Playback Designs) in a good system. Now either the digital file sounds like the tape it was copied from or it doesn't. Simple as that. Is it a mirror image or isn't it. NO preferences are involved. And the answer in my experience is no the digital file is not a perfect copy.

You're either misreading or misunderstanding. I'm not talking about any copy. 2 original masters from the same feed, one tape, one digital.
So clients have a choice. The irony is that some who thought they would prefer digital ended up with tape...and vice versa. So it is and always will be preference. Like everything else. Which is exactly why all the folks you claim unanimously prefer tape, have completely different systems.
No "best" amp. No "best" speaker. etc, etc, etc. either. Just more preferences.

cheers,

AJ

 

[mep]

There is a point where source "preferences" reach a line of convergence among some audiophiles. If you only have a single source, obviously that is your preference. If you own two sources and use them regularly, you will probably prefer one source over the other. If you have three sources to choose from, a pecking order will start to emerge. If you have four sources to listen to, you will have an established pecking order.

So now we are starting to see that people who own and playback four different sources (PCM, DSD, vinyl, and tape) seem to have a convergence of opinions on the pecking order. The pecking order that I see emerging among those who have all four sources is tape, vinyl, DSD, and PCM. MikeL is possibly after further listening to his new Trinity PCM mega-expensive PCM DAC (price of admission is your first born child and one kidney)ready to flip his preference for DSD and PCM or at least put them on the same level. And for whatever reason, it seems that to bring PCM playback to where it can compete with DSD and come close to analog is super expensive.

Bottom line is that if you can get more than two audiophiles to agree on anything, you have a majority opinion.

 

[Geardaddy]

no; whether we like it or not if we pay very close attention there is a clear hierarchy to formats. but I agree that personal taste enters into it. but live with enough cross section of the formats and preferences get established.

others equating preferences = absolutes is their problem with semantics. that's not the meaning intended.....but trolls have to do their trolling and polarizing.

Bingo. In the information age, there is always a trail regarding the mastering process.

 

[still-one]

Mike-I agree with what you said. It's pointless for people who don't own all the formats and listen to them regularly to argue against the findings of those who do.

one correlation I have seen from numerous forums is the bigger the troll, the more challenged their system is in terms of performance.

What?? Because someone doesn't agree with your preferences they are a troll. That is awfully pompous.

 

[Myles B. Astor]

What?? Because someone doesn't agree with your preferences they are a troll. That is awfully pompous.

I'd hardly call Mark's system challenged. Are you? Now who is trolling?

So let's say you were comparing French, Italian, Scandinavian and German cuisines. Let's say you only had tasted two of the above and yet we're offering an opinion on the best cuisine. What weight could you attach to that opinion or judgement?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Bottom line is that if you can get more than two audiophiles to agree on anything, you have a majority opinion.

LOL, ok finally something we agree on.
The 7-8 here who agree on tape must be some kind of world record.:lol:

cheers,

AJ

p.s. next up tubes are "best", 300B to be precise

 

[still-one]

I'd hardly call Mark's system challenged. Are you? Now who is trolling?

So let's say you were comparing French, Italian, Scandinavian and German cuisines. Let's say you only had tasted two of the above and yet we're offering an opinion on the best cuisine. What weight could you attach to that opinion or judgement?

Why the hell are you talking about food? I find it very pompous for anyone to denigrate someone else's system, calling it challenged and them a troll because that individual does not goose step to their line of thinking. It's BS that you have to have a expensive system to have an opinion.