Drought conditions, what about desalination?

Bob...do you mind my asking who you work for? I used to cover Industrial stocks and many of them had water pumps, purification and other water utility-related businesses (thinking of ITT, Pall Corp., etc..). Just curious.

Cyril, i have a small company Pure Water Systems, Inc. We make residential Point of Use and laboratory water purification systems using reverse osmosis and deionization. Zero ppm water - great for Klaudio record cleaners. (Not to mention toxic contaminant free water for health and detoxification... but it is an audio forum afterall!)

Mike, extremely large scale reverse osmosis is often part of a desalination plant.
 
Cyril, i have a small company Pure Water Systems, Inc. We make residential Point of Use and laboratory water purification systems using reverse osmosis and deionization. Zero ppm water - great for Klaudio record cleaners. (Not to mention toxic contaminant free water for health and detoxification... but it is an audio forum afterall!)

Mike, extremely large scale reverse osmosis is often part of a desalination plant.

Hi Bob,

Just out of curiosity, what kind of output and efficiencies are the current reverse osmosis (standard residential scale if there is such a thing?...and, if you know commercial outputs please share as well) systems capable of?

Back in the early 90's I was into reef aquarium keeping and sourcing RO water for changes/top-off was one of the keys to keeping a healthy reef. However, the RO units of that time period created a very small percentage of usable water compared to the waste water.

Maybe I understood it wrong at the time (re: waste water) but just wondering if you can shed some light on the RO process? E.g., for X number of gallons passed thru a given system X gallons are purified.....and does this number change when processing sea water?

Thanks.
 
Cyril, i have a small company Pure Water Systems, Inc. We make residential Point of Use and laboratory water purification systems using reverse osmosis and deionization. Zero ppm water - great for Klaudio record cleaners. (Not to mention toxic contaminant free water for health and detoxification... but it is an audio forum afterall!)

Mike, extremely large scale reverse osmosis is often part of a desalination plant.

Bob...thx for the response :thumbsup:
 
From what I have read, Desalinated water on a large scale typically costs about $2,000 an acre foot -- roughly the amount of water a family of five uses in a year. The largest plant costing $1 Billion dollars will open in 2016 in Carsbad Ca. Nation's largest ocean desalination plant goes up near San Diego; Future of the California coast? - San Jose Mercury News

"In Carlsbad, two gallons of seawater will be needed to produce each gallon of drinking water. And to remove the salt, the plant will use an enormous amount of energy -- about 38 megawatts, enough to power 28,500 homes -- to force 100 million gallons of seawater a day through a series of filters."

Mike, we have plants right here in Fla pulling water out of Tampa Bay and the oldest plant is located in Key West
 
From what I have read, Desalinated water on a large scale typically costs about $2,000 an acre foot -- roughly the amount of water a family of five uses in a year. The largest plant costing $1 Billion dollars will open in 2016 in Carsbad Ca. Nation's largest ocean desalination plant goes up near San Diego; Future of the California coast? - San Jose Mercury News

"In Carlsbad, two gallons of seawater will be needed to produce each gallon of drinking water. And to remove the salt, the plant will use an enormous amount of energy -- about 38 megawatts, enough to power 28,500 homes -- to force 100 million gallons of seawater a day through a series of filters."

Mike, we have plants right here in Fla pulling water out of Tampa Bay and the oldest plant is located in Key West

That's what I was looking for. Thanks. Very interesting to read how the costs have come down so much vs 30 years ago. The diagram was also very helpful. What I see now is that they need to find better ways to store the desal water to ensure an annual consistent supply.
 
That's what I was looking for. Thanks. Very interesting to read how the costs have come down so much vs 30 years ago. The diagram was also very helpful. What I see now is that they need to find better ways to store the desal water to ensure an annual consistent supply.

Mike a larger issue beside storing the water is how to discharge the left over salt and to where. Since the salt that is removed from the sea water is brine and is close to double the salinity, its to salty to reintroduce it back into the ocean or to just dump on the earth.

OH, did you know that there are over 120 plants in Florida.

Tampa Bay Seawater Desalination Plant
 
Mike a larger issue beside storing the water is how to discharge the left over salt and to where. Since the salt that is removed from the sea water is brine and is close to double the salinity, its to salty to reintroduce it back into the ocean or to just dump on the earth.

OH, did you know that there are over 120 plants in Florida.

Tampa Bay Seawater Desalination Plant

I'm sure we can figure something to do with the waste.

120 plants in Florida? I better not hear about another water shortage in Florida again!
 
I wonder as costs lower on desalination will buying a dry Island in the tropics be a option. These islands are cheap now as they have no water some are the price of a good set of speakers.
2,000 dollars a year for water for a family of 5 a year does not sound that bad to me. I have 12 locations I pay a lot more than that to remove snow just so it can melt in the spring into water.

The waste brine is problem all right I wonder the cost to turn it into salt that is saleable I am sure someone has the numbers on what that would cost. Good posts facts are good and good people are working on the problem which is good . The point we all waste to much water because we can and it is cheap is valid as well. Too many people in a area the land can not support not a new problem. lots of water in the Maine very few people California very little water lots of people road trip anybody .
 
Regarding the brine. The brine can be disposed in Fla by a few methods ; (1) deep well injected, or (2) diluted and returned to the sea, or (3) its transported after its diluted and used in the numerous power plants in Fla in their cooling systems and after further dilution is transferred back to sea by tidal wash.

Not sure if anyone has thought of turning this brine into table salt or salt for swimming pools.
 
Ok, this forum doesn't do politics. I have a degree in Petroleum Engineering, and we were just beginning the fracking process when I was in school. If you'd ever care to discuss, offline, this issue to sort fact from hype I would do that. For example, fresh water aquafer water is not used, but generally brackish or highly saline waters from water bearing strata that would not be considered anything near potable. And that strata accepts the waste as well.

Our tap water where I live is considered borderline undrinkable. Personally, I consider it completely undrinkable. Case in point = when the water smells like something that can run your vehicle, you probably should not drink it.
 
Our tap water where I live is considered borderline undrinkable. Personally, I consider it completely undrinkable. Case in point = when the water smells like something that can run your vehicle, you probably should not drink it.

That's why there is an importance of finding new sources of water. Water isn't an option, it's a necessity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Our tap water where I live is considered borderline undrinkable. Personally, I consider it completely undrinkable. Case in point = when the water smells like something that can run your vehicle, you probably should not drink it.

There is nothing like horrid drinking water that some cities process, to much chlorine or there is a hint of a chemical taste. The wife and I were just in Jacksonville Fl to have her car serviced at Brumos and the water was horrible. So I just happen to look it up with a little google. Worst drinking water in America | jacksonville.com there it sat, #10 in the US for poor drinking water/.
 
There is nothing like horrid drinking water that some cities process, to much chlorine or there is a hint of a chemical taste. The wife and I were just in Jacksonville Fl to have her car serviced at Brumos and the water was horrible. So I just happen to look it up with a little google. Worst drinking water in America | jacksonville.com there it sat, #10 in the US for poor drinking water/.

Wow! My area must be in the top ten on the list or something. I've smelled a little extra chlorine in other tap water on occasion in other places. (Makes me wonder what they are trying to hide). However, in the place I live now I have actually smelled fuel as in gasoline or similar! I know what chlorine smells like and that was not it. I've smelled it 3 times in the last 2.5 years here. Yes, I drink bottled water (and we don't even know what goes in there, but at least it won't catch fire or something), but unfortunately I have to shower in tap.
I think recycled toilet water would be better, but I don't want that either.
 
Wow! My area must be in the top ten on the list or something. I've smelled a little extra chlorine in other tap water on occasion in other places. (Makes me wonder what they are trying to hide). However, in the place I live now I have actually smelled fuel as in gasoline or similar! I know what chlorine smells like and that was not it. I've smelled it 3 times in the last 2.5 years here. Yes, I drink bottled water (and we don't even know what goes in there, but at least it won't catch fire or something), but unfortunately I have to shower in tap.
I think recycled toilet water would be better, but I don't want that either.

So which city do you reside in ?
 
Hi Bob,

Just out of curiosity, what kind of output and efficiencies are the current reverse osmosis (standard residential scale if there is such a thing?...and, if you know commercial outputs please share as well) systems capable of?

Back in the early 90's I was into reef aquarium keeping and sourcing RO water for changes/top-off was one of the keys to keeping a healthy reef. However, the RO units of that time period created a very small percentage of usable water compared to the waste water.

Maybe I understood it wrong at the time (re: waste water) but just wondering if you can shed some light on the RO process? E.g., for X number of gallons passed thru a given system X gallons are purified.....and does this number change when processing sea water?

Thanks.

With RO, the tap water is pressed against a semi-permeable membrane, and only water molecules (in theory) cross the membrane. There are a number of molecules and ions that can pass at lessor rates than, say, sodium, calcium, and other mineral salts which are typically rejected about 95% in a new membrane. The trouble is, as the raw water is forced against the membrane, the contaminants build up and must be flushed away or the membrane will build up plaque and foul. The pressure of most municipal water supplies is typically enough, but at low pressures comes low performance and low efficiency. Many basic RO systems use 7-10+ gallons of raw water to produce a gallon of pure. Our design uses about 2.5 - 3 gallons for each gallon of pure. (Water used to purify drinking/cooking water for typical family of four is normally less than water used in a 5 minute shower.) Our design adds deionization as a tertiary phase of purification, removing what RO does not, resulting in exceptionally pure water, free of all dangerous contaminants, and tastes amazing. We normally market to health care professionals who resell to their client/patients. We export globally.

Most residential systems now use about a 50 gallon/day membrane so there is fast recovery when the tank is emptied. (A valve stops production when the tank is full.) A number of products have been made with a goal of reducing the brine water produced, but they all have problems yielding a decrease in contaminant rejection.

Commercial systems can produce about any amount you might desire, all depending on $$. Our lab systems typically produce at 125 GPD rates, and often have large storage tanks (the size tank of say a typical private water well. It is all about peak demand and time available to replenish. We use pumps on those systems, and have a little better recovery as a result, but our residential systems have about the best ratio for home units. Commercial systems can have up to about 50% recovery rate, but require high pressure and a lot of maintenance to keep membranes from fouling. And of course, residentail water seldom is higher than about 2000 parts per million (ppm), sea water is 30,000-40,000 ppm.

Someone asked about selling sea salt - yuk! All the toxins of the world end up in the oceans, so not a high quality source for salt. There are salt deposits with almost 100% purity, and there are some products available that are "sea salts" but typically mined from ancient sources.
 
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