Do I really need an " Audio Grade Network Switch "?

[preston8452]

I think it's been a quite controversial topic for years, like what's the difference between normal network switch and an audio grade network switch, the price difference is certainly obvious though...
Anyway, I've done some researches, most audio reviewers say that under this " new digital streaming era " that an network switch is a must for an audio system, which is understandable for me, I mean because if I wanna play TIDAL or Qobuz or Spotify, I gotta use network so I can stream these online services, so yeah I get that if the network quality is good enough, it can possibly level up the music performance.

But anyhow, I'm new to this area, so I don't like to spend big bucks on my first purchase hahaha... there's a very wide range of the prices though, the top one is Ansuz Power Switch I think, the inner circuit and design look pretty sharp, and surely over my budget lol

So I'm choosing between Bonn N8 and SW-8, these two both got good reviews, and the prices seem so darn much friendly to me as I'm looking for an entry level switch now, do any of you have any insights to share?
or should I just go for the higher level ones?

Best,

 

[Puma Cat]

Do I really need an " Audio Grade Network Switch?

Yes.

Get an UpTone Audio EtherREGEN.

 

[jmusica]

You could go the fiber route if you're concerned with interference or other noise on a copper cable. Either a fiber SFP port on the switch and a media converter on the device side, or two media converters. If you're not familiar, essentially this converts the ethernet data transmission to light, then back again closer to the audio device, where you can use a short high end "audio-grade" ethernet cable that in theory protects the signal from badness like rmi/efi or near-end cross talk etc.

No matter what you do the last yard of signal for any streamer that only accepts copper ethernet (Cat 5/6 etc) is going to be a copper ethernet cable. Some devices are starting to include SFP ports to go all-fiber, like Lumin X1 which to me seems the best design.

If you're converting the signal to fiber I can't really see a need for anything other than a normal ethernet switch from a reputable manufacturer to pump out the 0s and 1s.

(Thought this was interesting, although I can't vouch for it's scientific accuracy: Top 2 Things to Consider When Running Ethernet and Power Cable)

 

[rbbert]

...If you're converting the signal to fiber I can't really see a need for anything other than a normal ethernet switch from a reputable manufacturer to pump out the 0s and 1s.

What about between the incoming Ethernet signal (typically coax from a cable provider) and the conversion to fiber?

 

[Randy Myers]

If you are streaming then I would say probably worth it. If you are not streaming then there is no purpose what so ever for it.

 

[jmusica]

What about between the incoming Ethernet signal (typically coax from a cable provider) and the conversion to fiber?

Converting to fiber would happen after your internal/home ethernet switch and in theory takes care of any mess brought in before it, whether the cable modem or your switch. The design key with the fiber conversion theory is that you leave only a very short ethernet run into your streamer and you control for any ethernet mess as close to your streamer as possible. In a related scenario, same logic would apply for a direct connection from a NAS to the ethernet port on a streamer, in case you're not streaming from the internet or your home ethernet switch won't be in the mix.

 

[rbbert]

I love the "in theory" . I do have fiber conversion, short lengths of various Ethernet cables, an NAS and an EtherRegen with LPS, and have done a little experimentation with putting each of those at different parts of the chain, with no clear conclusions apparent to me (yet). I don't do any critical listening via Internet stream, only from local files on the NAS (or the servers internal SSD)

 

[Mr Peabody]

I have never done comparisons between switches. I did try an Ether Regen, they offer a return, I kept mine, not sure what's in the box but the improvement in sound quality was worth keeping it. This would only impact streaming music from the internet.

 

[still-one]

What about between the incoming Ethernet signal (typically coax from a cable provider) and the conversion to fiber?

In my system replacing a long run of Ethernet with fiber optic "may" not have improved the SQ but it definitely contributed to what has been a rock solid Roon connection for several years now. I could never get a GigaFoil and Keces power supply to work in my set-up. I inserted a switch with a fiber optic output that sits in a upstairs closet where my routers and SGC i5 are located. A log run of fiber optic then goes down to my 2 channel room and terminates in a optical module just in front of my Upsampler. There is a short run of Shunyata Sigma ethernet that connects between the optical module and the Upsampler. Great sound and a rock solid Roon implementation ever since.

 

[jmusica]

Good point about the physical advantages of a fiber run, particularly over a longer distance or near anything environmentally challenging. Theoretically fiber (in appropriate conduit, run by professionals) could be used between between floors, or even between buildings, eg a mother-in-law suite, etc. Copper ethernet has distance limitations (100m) that could affect a larger, multi-floor house.

 

[Puma Cat]

Bingo. Perefect description.

 

[roncagg]

Question: my switch is used to connect a streamer (Metrum ambre) and a SGC sonictransporter (Roon core) to my router - so it comes into play for both “internet” streaming (e.g tidal through Roon) and for local USB drive files through the SGC. I would think the switch equally affects both audio feeds is that correct?

 

[still-one]

Question: my switch is used to connect a streamer (Metrum ambre) and a SGC sonictransporter (Roon core) to my router - so it comes into play for both “internet” streaming (e.g tidal through Roon) and for local USB drive files through the SGC. I would think the switch equally affects both audio feeds is that correct?

i am not going to get into the debate whether switch's can impact the SQ of your audio. As noted in my post above I added a switch that allows me to convert to optical and remove the potential for noise via Ethernet. It sounds great and I am not going to A/B it to a higher end switch. If it impacts the SQ I would think it would do so on both.

 

[rbbert]

I appreciate the sonic advantages of switches and fiber-optic (any copper Ethernet cable I might use is less than 60 ft). Both Internet streaming and local streaming follow the same path to my server, which also has a (generic) SSD. I can batch load local files (one or several albums) into buffered RAM prior to play (or play from the SSD directly), which is not possible when internet streaming (although the next file can go into buffered RAM while one is playing), and the sound quality difference is noticeable. It might be that the extra CPU work loading a file into RAM buffer while one is playing could affect the sound quality but that hasn't been my experience (no difference if I buffer just the next file vs. no buffering). Have those of you using Qobuz or Tidal as your primary digital source not noticed this?

My internet connection is pretty solid 600 Mbps (70+ MBps) down.

 

[jmusica]

I find SQ of local digital streamed from NAS (or Lumin L1, which is a proprietary NAS for Lumin streamers) generally better than internet-streamed, even from hi-res sources like Qobuz. I don't really have enough info or expertise to venture an (educated) guess as to why, but I tend to doubt it has to do with the switch- both sources go that route.

I recently read an article on What's Best Forum where a very detailed reviewer insists he heard a difference when replacing his switch with the Netgear S8000, which is a gamer-oriented switch, and coincidentally the switch I've used for years and just replaced with a Cisco Meraki, because the Meraki has an in-built SFP port, whereas I had to use 2 converters with the Netgear. Can't say I've detected a difference.

I guess at the end of the day, if pressed my input would be spend your $ (and time) elsewhere in the audio chain; I'd think any difference would be more detectable elsewhere than a network switch.

 

[W9TR]

Any audible improvement by using a switch, optical break, etc. will not be due to the primary purpose of the device. That’s well understood.

It will be a secondary effect, most likely the reduction/elimination of electrical noise that ends up inducing jitter in the upsampler/DAC.

Jitter measurement is a well known and solved problem, yet manufacturers of these switches cables and isolation devices have yet to show that their devices quantitatively reduce jitter. It’s crickets out there, apart from a hand-waving white paper from one popular device manufacturer.

It’s too bad, because enough people whose opinions I value are hearing differences. Are these differences in these individual’s cerebral cortexes?

 

[jmusica]

It will be a secondary effect, most likely the reduction/elimination of electrical noise that ends up inducing jitter in the upsampler/DAC.

This is the bit I have trouble connecting the dots - or in this case, bits - on. How does a series of 0s and 1s induce - or conversely, solve - jitter? May well be the case, but I sure don’t understand it. And as you’ve said, there seems little-to-no scientific/empirical proof of said.

 

[Puma Cat]

Question: my switch is used to connect a streamer (Metrum ambre) and a SGC sonictransporter (Roon core) to my router - so it comes into play for both “internet” streaming (e.g tidal through Roon) and for local USB drive files through the SGC. I would think the switch equally affects both audio feeds is that correct?

Yes. If you are using an el-cheapo, generic Ethernet switch, it is putting clock phase noise and jitter into the data stream from the server to the DAC. If this switch is powered by a Switch-Mode Power Supply, it it also putting high-source impedance leakage current into the stream as well, which results increased threshold jitter, which also as to the timing errors caused by phase noise and jitter. As our brains are sensitive to timing errors in the picosecond range, the impact of this threshold jitter is audible.

 

[rbbert]

I find SQ of local digital streamed from NAS (or Lumin L1, which is a proprietary NAS for Lumin streamers) generally better than internet-streamed, even from hi-res sources like Qobuz. I don't really have enough info or expertise to venture an (educated) guess as to why, but I tend to doubt it has to do with the switch- both sources go that route.

I also doubt it is due to a switch, or to any particular switch; I was more curious as to how those who apparently use streaming as their primary digital source (as opposed to a secondary digital source that is a good way to find new music or for less critical listening) reconcile that with its lesser sound quality, or do they find the sound quality equivalent, or just don't care. And if the sound quality is equivalent, how do they make that happen?

 

[W9TR]

This is the bit I have trouble connecting the dots - or in this case, bits - on. How does a series of 0s and 1s induce - or conversely, solve - jitter? May well be the case, but I sure don’t understand it. And as you’ve said, there seems little-to-no scientific/empirical proof of said.

The theory of the case goes something like this. All digital signals are really analog signals that have finite rise times and fall times. At some point in the chain, a device, usually the DAC, has to interpret what is a 0 and what is a 1. This is done with a device called a voltage comparator, which is set at a fixed voltage somewhere between digital 0 and digital 1. If this comparator is perfect, it will correctly determine the TIMING of the digital 0 to 1 transition. However, if there is noise on the ground or power supply of this comparator, it will change the TIMING of the 0 to 1 transition, inducing what we now call ‘jitter’. Switches, cables, isolators and the like strive to reduce or eliminate this noise to create more perfect transitions and more precise TIMING, thus reducing or eliminating the resulting uncertainty, or jitter.

Now all of this is measurable to sub-picosecond accuracy with modern test equipment. Yet no device manufacturer has chosen to do so. I wonder why?