Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference

[Michaels HiFi]

For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.

This may 100% be my experience as well. I like to try stuff vs just hearing about it.

So for me being able to try this - and return it to Amazon if I don't like it - AND I'll be one less keyboard commando slinging uninformed statements on the internet vs having actually tried it - I've got nothing to loose.

 

[mep]

I skipped those items out for a number of reasons, most of which was the complexity, and most significantly, the ability to reliaby and predictably connect everything together, and always have it work.[/I] For example, one of the specific issues I had was with the SOtM network bridge was often losing connection to the SOtM's Eunhasu Server local set-up page.

Also, the EtherREGEN (ER) switch is prone, in my experience, to overheating. I think overheating creates tolerance issues with the dimensions of the SFP cage and the connection some optical transceivers can make with the SFP cage contacts. The streaming network will work and when it works, it sounds really good, but my specific set-up, it was really fussy a lot of the time, and prone to not working if my network couldn't connect to the SOtM Eunhasu server, or the USB cable's A-end came very slightly dislodged from the female USB-A port in the SOtM, or the ER's RJ45 port would lose contact with the Omega Ethernet cable's Telegartner connector (which is really heavy), and last but not least, the optical transceiver in the SFP cage of EtherREGEN was prone to not consistently connecting.

Also, ER runs REALLY hot and I started powering it down when not using it because I was concerned with it ultimately failing (as my UpTone LPS-1.0 did) and also the SFP cage tolerances expanding a bit and losing contact with the optical transceiver. Also, sometimes ER would lose sync with the AfterDark master clock, and I'd have to re-set it, take the clock cable off, re-boot, and then hope ER would sync back up with AfterDark clock. It just all got to be too much.:wacko:

Now I just run an LC/LC optical cable from the remote servier into the back of the Lumin P1 and everything works. EVERY time. It's proven to be consideraby simpler, and as such, more reliable and predictable. And sounds considerably better, too. All told, I was able to remove 15 bits of gear from the "digital set-up" by getting the P1.

And that's the point. You dumped a bunch of stuff that made your digital signal chain unreliable because you added unnecessary components that increased the complexity while reducing the reliability.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Don't get me wrong about ER. I think it represented a breakthrough product when it debuted and it really demonstrated the importance of the Ethernet switch for music streaming application in high-end audio, especially when considering the absolute crap "generic" switches that were available from the LAN networking industry at the time of it's debut. The functional requirements for a switch sending a PDF file to a laser printer for printing a hard copy of a document are very, very different than sending a high-res music file from a music server to a network bridge or audio streamer. Back when ER launched, some folks posed questions about how hot it was getting and the reply was "It's fine, don't worry about it."

And for the most part, that was true. But, as someone who worked as a DFSS Master Black Belt (MBB) for >10 years, I can tell you there are two key Dimensions of Quality that are NEVER discussed by product reviewers and almost always not considered by product developers. Particularly in high-end audio. These dimensions of quality are not features nor functions, and therefore, they are not "sexy", so they NEVER get discussed by audio reviewers, but they are very important in the REAL WORLD, where we all....actually live (not the pages of an audio review).

These Dimensions of Quality are referred to in Six Sigma and Design for Six Sigma (DFSS) as Design for X*, where X is the "-ilities", and in this case, two of the X's are: 1) Reliability and 2) Durability.

In my experience, and in the experience of most all other customers, ER worked very well, especially when new. But after years and years of hard use, with ER being left powered on 24/7 for years, in my experience, it's possible for ER to suffer from from reliability failure modes† that may compromise it's overall useful product life, aka, it's durability. My hypothesis is that the very sophisticated components, e.g. the FPGA, and/or the Crystek CCHD-575 clock, or other components, may fail from ER running so hot for so long. Part of the basis for this hypothesis is I have owned two other UpTone products, the LPS-1.0 and LPS-1.2 linear power supplies, purchased in 2016 and 2019 respectively, that also run really hot and...both of them have failed. So, of the 3 UpTone products I've bought, 2 of them are dead, and because of the chip shortage, they cannot be repaired. They've also been discontinued from production for the same reasons.

As a result, the last month or so, when I wasn't using the system, I resorted to unplugging the ER from it's pwer supply so it would not be so hot, all the time. I would plug it in when listening, and unplug it when the system was off.

The only reason I've been able to use my original Sonore OpticalModule in the remote server room is I bought a third UpTone LPS-1.0 LPS from a friend. I think the reason it has not failed is that the OM only needs 5V, not the 9V that ER needed. Running at almost half the voltage, the OpticalModule does not run as hot, and as a result is more durable. In my opinion, UpTone broke new ground with the development these products, but in my experience, they may have an MTBF of 3-5 years.

*-some of the other Dimensions of Quality in Design for X are: Serviceability, Repairability, and (Parts) Availability. These quality attributes never get mentioned in product reviews because they are not not sexy and not glamorous. But they are very important in the REAL WORLD. Imagine buying a car with no spare parts availability. Or, a car that cannot be repaired.

†-a failure mode is anything that can go wrong. It is the basis for performing the Failure Modes and Effects Analysis, FMEA, and was developed by NASA during the Space Program in the 1960s.

I worked with six sigma in a past life.

I think ultimately we loose the willingness to be openminded on trying new stuff, and that something new might work, because many of spend too much time trying to be experts to try and explain on things that may not be the right things to focus on.

I learned this from my group of Best audio buddies years ago. Each one had a system worth at least $150K and they would come up with the weirdest cheap stuff to try sometimes that sounds fantastic. I remember one compared a $150 Art Audio cheap (from Guitar Center) the DAC, modes a resistor and put in a NOS tube, and for $300 total price he was using it instead of $5K DAC's. Or how the cheap Hotel CD transport and entry level Theta Digital DAC smoked the new Krell CD player (I owned them all) that was twice the price of the combo. THAT was my first real experience that more $$ and high end brand names don't always equate to better.

That group ran big up in the recording and audio reviewing circles in NYC back then. It was amazing that they always felt the really good products that couldn't afford to buy their way into the reviews never got any reviews written about them so the best sounding gear was rarely written about.

I kinda view this stuff the same way - it's the under-the-radar products than can (or may not) make huge gains in sound but are not "cool" enough for many to care about. Plus, I think its so much more fun to try different things than just the same-ole stuff that is so over talked about.

 

[brodricj]

...It was amazing that they always felt the really good products that couldn't afford to buy their way into the reviews never got any reviews written about them so the best sounding gear was rarely written about..

This is a good point. Can anybody point me at a review of the Esoteric Grandioso D1X? When the D1X first came to the US market I was told by the distributor that a review example was doing the rounds. That was over two years ago and nothing came of it.

 

[mep]

This is a good point. Can anybody point me at a review of the Esoteric Grandioso D1X? When the D1X first came to the US market I was told by the distributor that a review example was doing the rounds. That was over two years ago and nothing came of it.

That is a terrible point actually. It is a myth that keeps perpetuating on audio forums that companies have to "buy their way into reviews" and there is never any proof. Did you ever think of the possibility that the reason the Esoteric D1X hasn't been reviewed is because Esoteric never made one available for review? If you really want to know the answer, why don't you contact Esoteric directly and ask them?

 

[brodricj]

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

 

[mep]

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

No, I read it. It doesn't mean it really happened. Do you really think that Esoteric can't get their gear reviewed if they want to have it reviewed? If the D1X was really "doing the rounds" for reviews for 2 years, do you really think that no reviews would have appeared? If you really want to know the truth, contact Esoteric directly and ask them.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Did you miss what I said "I was told by the distributor that a review sample was doing the rounds"?

You are exactly right. Look at what Jay talks about in his recent video where he covers this. He was told this POINT BLANK at Capital Audio Fest by mfg's and distributors. Also google former reviewer Arthur Salvatore as he talks in depth about the corruption from 10, 20, 30 years ago we all know exist.

It's like these over-the-hill reviewers are spitting and trying to convince us it's raining. That's why they hate YouTube and such - it threatens their control over what gear you know about - and there is no need to buy into has-been media reviews any longer with the new ways of talking about product. It's quite interesting to watch this shift in dynamic between those embracing it and those trying to fight it (a loosing fight).

Check this out from Arthur Salvatore - a former reviewer. If you google him he also posts complete emails of his fights with Myles. It's like watching a bunch of middle schoolers argue. STEREOPHILESTEREOPHILE

 

[Puma Cat]

I worked with six sigma in a past life.

I think ultimately we loose the willingness to be openminded on trying new stuff, and that something new might work, because many of spend too much time trying to be experts to try and explain on things that may not be the right things to focus on.

I learned this from my group of Best audio buddies years ago. Each one had a system worth at least $150K and they would come up with the weirdest cheap stuff to try sometimes that sounds fantastic. I remember one compared a $150 Art Audio cheap (from Guitar Center) the DAC, modes a resistor and put in a NOS tube, and for $300 total price he was using it instead of $5K DAC's. Or how the cheap Hotel CD transport and entry level Theta Digital DAC smoked the new Krell CD player (I owned them all) that was twice the price of the combo. THAT was my first real experience that more $$ and high end brand names don't always equate to better.

That group ran big up in the recording and audio reviewing circles in NYC back then. It was amazing that they always felt the really good products that couldn't afford to buy their way into the reviews never got any reviews written about them so the best sounding gear was rarely written about.

I kinda view this stuff the same way - it's the under-the-radar products than can (or may not) make huge gains in sound but are not "cool" enough for many to care about. Plus, I think its so much more fun to try different things than just the same-ole stuff that is so over talked about.

I just try work as best as I can to configure the system based on an understanding of science, engineering, and data. Sometimes, DOEs can help with that. For digital audio, it's primarily about 1) removing noise and 2) optimizing signal. It's ironic that "Perfect Sound Forever" is actually really prone to being significantly impacted by a slew of noise factors. The key noise components for "digital-domain only" devices are common-mode noise, high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise. Good digital cables can remove common-mode noise, optical can remove leakage current and thus, reduce or ameliorate threshold jitter, but what optical won't do is eliminate phase noise from crap clocks "upstream". For that, you need excellent digital clocks to attenuate or reduce phase noise.

For both "analog amplification" and "digital-doman" devices, the remaining class of significant noise factors is ground-plane noise, and CG and SG Altaira hubs deal very, very effective with that.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I just try work as best as I can to configure the system based on an understanding of science, engineering, and data. Sometimes, DOEs can help with that. For digital audio, it's primarily about 1) removing noise and 2) optimizing signal. It's ironic that "Perfect Sound Forever" is actually really prone to being significantly impacted by a slew of noise factors. The key noise components for "digital-domain only" devices are common-mode noise, high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise. Good digital cables can remove common-mode noise, optical can remove leakage current and thus, reduce or ameliorate threshold jitter, but what optical won't do is eliminate phase noise from crap clocks "upstream". For that, you need excellent digital clocks to attenuate or reduce phase noise.

For both "analog amplification" and "digital-doman" devices, the remaining class of significant noise factors is ground-plane noise, and CG and SG Altaira hubs deal very, very effective with that.

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know how my experiment works out.

 

[Puma Cat]

For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.

Good info for reference. Thanks.

Just want to be sure my findings and experiences with ER are not mis-construed nor mis-understood. ER was, iMHO, a veritable breakthrough product in 2019 and demonstrated first-hand how important a good Ethernet switch was for high-end audio "streaming" applications. It broke new ground in this "domain" when it appeared in the market, and has deservedly been a very successful product for UpTone. I also hold it's designer, John Swenson, in very high regard. He's the real deal and really knows his domain. I'm also very thankful that John installed a ground terminal on ER so I can connect it to an Altaira.

My ER was purchased in 2019 and is still working today. In fact, it's now residing in the remote server room, connected to it's AfterDark clock and is sending files from the music server to the P1. My concerns about ER are not about it's features and functionality, which are excellent, but rather it's reliability and durability. Given that it runs pretty hot, my concern is one day it's gonna give up the ghost, just as my UpTone LPS-1.0 and 1.2, have, and no longer function.

If that happens, as ER is no longer in production, I'll be getting a SOtM sNH-10G Ethernet switch as it also has two optical SFP cages.

Reflecting back on my network streaming set-up to date, since implementing it in 2019, the no. 1 most-frequent failure mode I've had with my streaming set-up prior to the arrival of the P1 has had nothing to do with ER, but not being able to consistently connect with the SOtM SMS-200UltraNeo's Eunhasu local server on my LAN to be able invoke "Roon-ready" mode. For reasons I still don't understand, it frequently drops out of Roon-ready mode, randomly, and often I could not re-connect to Eunhasu to invoke it again. I attribute the root cause of this to the wonky and poorly-performing ATT U-verse network and it's Pace router I am constrained to using in this home.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

For me, no. I returned the ER to the dealer and reverted back to using a Pakedge SE-5-EP switch. The Pakedge was way better, and a fraction of the price of ER with 10Mhz clock option.

Are you using the Pakedge as a hifi quality ethernet switch? They seem to be a more obscure brand - what led you to that one and how do you like it?

 

[Puma Cat]

Are you using the Pakedge as a hifi quality ethernet switch? They seem to be a more obscure brand - what led you to that one and how do you like it?

The other switch to consider is the SOtM sNH-10G. They also have two optical transceiver SFP cages. You can also get them with the SOtM SCL-EX clock board for an extra $700; the SOtM SCL-EX clock board is really an excellent clock.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

The other switch to consider is the SOtM sNH-10G. They also have two optical transceiver SFP cages. You can also get them with the SOtM SCL-EX clock board for an extra $700; the SOtM SCL-EX clock board is really an excellent clock.

Yes - thank you. I've been looking at that. I have a cable and filter of theirs on order to try first long with several other ethernet cables.

My plan is to compare my Netgear vs TP link switch as-is now and see if there is a sound difference between those two.

Then I will introduce the upgraded $15 PS you suggested I ordered on each and see how that is.

Then I will try the fiber set up.

Then I will consider the SOtm. But to be honest in the interest of not getting too complicated, I would probably skip dealing with external clocks and such.

I will also try plugging the switches into a wall and an older AudioQuest power condition that is now sidelined since it was replaced by the AQ 1200 I got from Mike recently.

 

[brodricj]

Are you using the Pakedge as a hifi quality ethernet switch? They seem to be a more obscure brand - what led you to that one and how do you like it?

I've been using Pakedge for as long as I can remember. I discovered the brand via Barry over at remotecentral.com when I was looking for a better WiFi solution for my ProntoPro TSU9600 remote controls. That was a Pakedge W6 access point and it just worked. Since then I've owned the whole Pakedge family as they introduced new models, including access points, network switches, routers, management agents and power distributors. The downside with Pakedge is their rubbish support. They see their customers as the dealers which re-sell their hardware and not the end users. They won't help end users with anything. The basic 5 port unmanaged Pakedge switch just walked all over the clocked ER. As much as I wanted the ER to be better, because it was expensive, because it was clocked, because it was marketed as audiophile grade, etc, it just wasn't in the same orbit as the Pakedge.

 

[u-sound]

I skipped those items out for a number of reasons, most of which was the complexity, and most significantly, the ability to reliaby and predictably connect everything together, and always have it work. For example, one of the specific issues I had was with the SOtM network bridge was often losing connection to the SOtM's Eunhasu Server local set-up page.

Also, the EtherREGEN (ER) switch is prone, in my experience, to overheating. I think overheating creates tolerance issues with the dimensions of the SFP cage and the connection some optical transceivers can make with the SFP cage contacts. The streaming network will work and when it works, it sounds really good, but my specific set-up, it was really fussy a lot of the time, and prone to not working if my network couldn't connect to the SOtM Eunhasu server, or the USB cable's A-end came very slightly dislodged from the female USB-A port in the SOtM, or the ER's RJ45 port would lose contact with the Omega Ethernet cable's Telegartner connector (which is really heavy), and last but not least, the optical transceiver in the SFP cage of EtherREGEN was prone to not consistently connecting.

Also, ER runs REALLY hot and I started powering it down when not using it because I was concerned with it ultimately failing (as my UpTone LPS-1.0 did) and also the SFP cage tolerances expanding a bit and losing contact with the optical transceiver. Also, sometimes ER would lose sync with the AfterDark master clock, and I'd have to re-set it, take the clock cable off, re-boot, and then hope ER would sync back up with AfterDark clock. It just all got to be too much.:wacko:

Now I just run an LC/LC optical cable from the remote servier into the back of the Lumin P1 and everything works. EVERY time. It's proven to be consideraby simpler, and as such, more reliable and predictable. And sounds considerably better, too. All told, I was able to remove 15 bits of gear from the "digital set-up" by getting the P1.

yup, a collection of crap, glad you removed it. ER is garage buildt and the issues were well know before your raving review that made a lot of people buying it !!
UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Ethernet Switch - The Absolute Sound
that ends with
"""it’s got to be of the biggest value propositions in all of high-end audio, and has my highest possible recommendation"""

(i hope you dont feel offended by me, i do like you. just want to share my thoughts)

 

[u-sound]

For digital audio, it's primarily about 1) removing noise and 2) optimizing signal. It's ironic that "Perfect Sound Forever" is actually really prone to being significantly impacted by a slew of noise factors. The key noise components for "digital-domain only" devices are common-mode noise, high-source impedance leakage current, threshold jitter, and phase noise. Good digital cables can remove common-mode noise, optical can remove leakage current and thus, reduce or ameliorate threshold jitter, but what optical won't do is eliminate phase noise from crap clocks "upstream". For that, you need excellent digital clocks to attenuate or reduce phase noise.

agreed, YOU NEED EXCELLENT CLOCKS, that is the topic with networking. it is a restoring process.
it is all about the clock and its surrounding. powersupply, cables and vibration control.
vibration control actually has the more significant impact than the cables imho (for switches).
fiberconverters are helpless.
the last year all of my journey went into networking. been to many incredible shops to see, talk and listen. some do not care to much about and some already had a lot of experience.
while brands vary, the topology of the good ones were always the same.
switches in series, best vibration control, good cables. add a linear ps to the router. no fiber!!

 

[Michaels HiFi]

agreed,
while brands vary, the topology of the good ones were always the same.
switches in series, best vibration control, good cables. add a linear ps to the router. no fiber!!

Some interesting points. Which brands have you found that you like for switches and such? Thanks for sharing.

 

[Puma Cat]

agreed, YOU NEED EXCELLENT CLOCKS, that is the topic with networking. it is a restoring process.
it is all about the clock and its surrounding. powersupply, cables and vibration control.
vibration control actually has the more significant impact than the cables imho (for switches).
fiberconverters are helpless.
the last year all of my journey went into networking. been to many incredible shops to see, talk and listen. some do not care to much about and some already had a lot of experience.
while brands vary, the topology of the good ones were always the same.
switches in series, best vibration control, good cables. add a linear ps to the router. no fiber!!

It's accurate that digital is prone to the influence of many different noise factors, some, but not all of which, are vibration, cables, power, etc.

I don't agree about fiber, but whatever floats your boat. Lest we forget, this is just a hobby we do for fun. In my case, my set-up was complicated and fussy, and I made it...simpler.

Simple as that.

 

[u-sound]

the problem, whatever brand, the bundle is expensive. if it is out of budget, better skip it and play files.

maybe the best switch today is the nordost. i havent heard it as it wasnt available then.
the other good ones are well known, gold note, melco, innuos. some used them in combination.

i went with 2 innuos in series, both with a set of wilson pedestal, shunyata omega ethernet and delta2 powercords. doesnt mean at all that this is the way to go.
however, the pedestals are paramount.