Class D amps.

"I still like ICE better ;)

Matt Kraemer"



Hi Matt

What wonderfull chassis you have! Is it possible to order? Where? Is there some allready made ones?
Can you please suggest a good ice module and where to buy?
I'd like to give it a try and it would be nice if I could buy one of those chassis for it...
Thank you in advance.
Francisco
 
I've been using the Ncore 400 modules in one of my amps for a couple of years, and have heard in my own system a couple of different Ncore 1200 based amps. My conclusion is that one can make an Ncore based amp sound pretty much anyway one would like.
I participated in the AudioCircle tour of the Ncore amp based on the NC400 modules and accompanying switching power supplies. The bass was impressive. The treble was extended but gritty, and the midrange lacked the density I hear in live music or from a really good amp. So I opened the amp up and found the input wiring harness to use a specific Mogami cable I'd previously evaluated, and concluded that much of what I disliked about the amp could be attributed to the cable. To Bruno's credit, he subsequently offered free replacements for that harness. The later harness was substantially better, but still not my cuppa.
I ordered the Nc400 modules and switching supplies, chassis and connectors, and spent a few months playing slap and tickle with the amp, mainly by the choices of connectors and internal wiring.
From my perspective, the Ncore modules offer a ruthlessly resolving, minuscule distortion platform whose subjective performance is largely dependent upon the preferences, experience and skill of the implementer.

FWIW,
Paul
Waveform Fidelity / Kaplan Cable
 
nCQ said:
I've been using the Ncore 400 modules in one of my amps for a couple of years, and have heard in my own system a couple of different Ncore 1200 based amps. My conclusion is that one can make an Ncore based amp sound pretty much anyway one would like.
I participated in the AudioCircle tour of the Ncore amp based on the NC400 modules and accompanying switching power supplies. The bass was impressive. The treble was extended but gritty, and the midrange lacked the density I hear in live music or from a really good amp. So I opened the amp up and found the input wiring harness to use a specific Mogami cable I'd previously evaluated, and concluded that much of what I disliked about the amp could be attributed to the cable. To Bruno's credit, he subsequently offered free replacements for that harness. The later harness was substantially better, but still not my cuppa.
I ordered the Nc400 modules and switching supplies, chassis and connectors, and spent a few months playing slap and tickle with the amp, mainly by the choices of connectors and internal wiring.
From my perspective, the Ncore modules offer a ruthlessly resolving, minuscule distortion platform whose subjective performance is largely dependent upon the preferences, experience and skill of the implementer.

FWIW,
Paul
Waveform Fidelity / Kaplan Cable
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul, that is very conclusive and usefull. By the way, can you tell us what is your prefered internal cable to these Ncore amps?
Have you ever tryed the classdaudio amps?
http://classdaudio.com/
Some guys prefered them against the Nuforce monoblocks special edition V3.
Thanks again!
Francisco
 
Francisco,

I've no experience with the offering from ClassDAudio.

As I'm a cable manufacturer, the cables I used internally for the Ncore were my own cables. :rolleyes: If you do intend to build a nCore 400 amp, I'd be happy to send you sufficient cable for input wiring, mains wiring to the power supply modules, and internal wiring from the amp modules to the output binding posts, gratis. If I can find them, I can also send the specific plugs needed to attach the mains wiring to the power supply and the plug for the signal input wiring to the amp boards.
The back panel connectors I used were -

Furutech FI-10(G) IEC inlet
Cardas CCBP-L unplated copper binding posts
Neutrik NC3BP-B1 Chassis mount XLR females

Silver or Rhodium plated versions of the connectors will give a subjectively less 'warm' presentation. The gold plated Cardas binding posts will be subjectively 'warmer' than the unplated version. YMMV

Your subjective preferences could well be quite different from my own, and therefore you might well find other cables, wiring and connectors preferable.

FWIW,

Paul
Waveform Fidelity / Kaplan Cable
 
Rowland 825 and 925 are Class D. The 825 was being played in various rooms at RMAF last year. It sounded great with Joseph Audio Pearl 3s.

i had an ARC DS450 for several years. It thought it sounded pretty good with my Revel Salon 2s until I visited our friend Mark (MDP). His Classe mono amps sounded much better than my class D amp. I will also share that when I purchased the DS450,I auditioned McIntosh and Ayre.

Absolute Sound had an issue last year, I believe, that included several of the big names in amp design. There was no clear consensus. However, some believe class D will continue to evolve and become very competitive.
 
Class D amplification has come a long way from the earlier days of ICEpower implementations, when power conversion modules were mostly convenient ways to get to market quickly, with a minimum of sweat and tears by the OEM. Yes, little was needed to create a “functional”, amplifier… Unfortunately, in most cases, this happened with a significant amount of musical compromise. Few examples distinguished themselves with honor from the plainly unsatisfactory sound of the middling crowd… My very favorites being the since withdrawn Rowland M312, immediately followed by the Bel Canto REF100M (Mk.2). See my PFO review of REF1000M at:

bel canto ref 1000

The problem was that while ICEpower modules delivered a lot of power and fast transients, they constituted by themselves very low sonic starting points. It took designers a lot of ingenuity and work to create power input subsystems, power regulations, and signal input systems that would wrestle the unwieldy creatures into making good music. Even with my favorite early class D amps, only the unrushed and ever patient audiophile would have enough fortitude to bear through a rather rocky break-in process, bearing through a slow climb replete with a plethora of deep dives into ugly sonic depression, which could extend over 1K hours before reaching musical cruising altitude.

Alas, those times have long gone… We have now at least a couple of sources of excellent power conversion modules that in the hands of capable amplifier designers, most unfailingly make sublime music… I am talking about Pascal –known for its use in the lovely Rowland Continuum S2 integrated, and the Hypex Ncore NC1200 family. These module suppliers make modules that by themselves constitute high starting points for amplifier designers.

Whether an amplifier is a sensitively conservative NCore NC1200 implementation as the Merrill Veritas monoblocks that I have reviewed for PFO at:

Merrill Audio Veritas Amplifiers

or pushes the limits of NCore potential like the Rowland M925 that I owned and have discussed at length elsewhere on AudioShark and WhatsBestForum, or are DIY implementations through NCore NC400, NCore amps invariably make amazing music.

Paradoxically, the problem of Pascal and Ncore is their very musicality from the early break-in stages. Only a few dozen hours after being powered up for the first time, these new amps make pretty decent music, so much so that the listener may be tempted to draw premature skeptic conclusions about their ultimate great capabilities… True enough, Ncore amps, and probably Pascal amps as well, do not go through the singularly painful intervals of horrid sound during long break-in. However, break-in does remain long, and WILL extend over 1K hours, as I have experienced with both Merrill Veritas and even more with my own Rowland M925 monos… But the experience is much more one of a gradual climb, whith only shallow dips, to performance heights that I have seldom experienced.... The key is in just three words... Patience Patience Patience!

G.
 
nCQ said:
Francisco,

I've no experience with the offering from ClassDAudio.

As I'm a cable manufacturer, the cables I used internally for the Ncore were my own cables. :rolleyes: If you do intend to build a nCore 400 amp, I'd be happy to send you sufficient cable for input wiring, mains wiring to the power supply modules, and internal wiring from the amp modules to the output binding posts, gratis. If I can find them, I can also send the specific plugs needed to attach the mains wiring to the power supply and the plug for the signal input wiring to the amp boards.
The back panel connectors I used were -

Furutech FI-10(G) IEC inlet
Cardas CCBP-L unplated copper binding posts
Neutrik NC3BP-B1 Chassis mount XLR females

Silver or Rhodium plated versions of the connectors will give a subjectively less 'warm' presentation. The gold plated Cardas binding posts will be subjectively 'warmer' than the unplated version. YMMV

Your subjective preferences could well be quite different from my own, and therefore you might well find other cables, wiring and connectors preferable.

FWIW,

Paul
Waveform Fidelity / Kaplan Cable
Click to expand...



Hi Paul
Thanks for the answer and your generosity.
I didn't decide yet if my next acquisition in terms of amp will be the JOB or the Hipex modules. If I will decide for the Hipex I will ask you the wire you choosed - I am sure that it will be a very mature choice and it will save me a lot of time and energy.
The thing is that I am not yet convinced (may be until I have the Hipex's in my home), that classd amps are my cup of tea.
I have a LM3886 amp, (ok, nothing special...), but this amp is very well implemented - with a big help of someone great who I found in the internet.
This amp has a fantastic psu with Black Gate capacitors - soon to be added - and LDR resistors in the amp board, as well as nichicon gold. The rythm and musical performance of these amps surpassed BY FAR what I heard in much more expensive systems... with class d amps. Very intoxicating indeed. Creamy sound, never agressive, never cold, never lets you feel indifferent, wich is the worst (audiophile) feeling. Sure , not the bass of Ncore nor that myriad of details, but it goes straight to the heart, although the details are the important details. Well, I am a LM amp freak, I think.
I know that sooner or later I will have a good classdamp, may be the ncores, but I feel more inclined to a JOB purchase. Of course that I am not thinking about Veritas, for example, too expensive for me for the moment.
But I allways say that I can be wrong and I am allways ready to change.
Who knows? May be one day I will have one single amp, a class d amp. But in this moment I doubt it.
 
Francisco,

Given your satisfaction with your own LM3886 chip amp, and the specific way you've implemented it, I wouldn't think an Ncore, or a Job/Goldmund would provide that specific sort of sound. Your LDR based attenuator might well be a large contributor in providing that 'creaminess'. I'd think you would like a DartZeel very much....
For a more economical alternative with more power you might check whether the vendor of your amp's board offers a parallel and/or bridged version of your amp; the advisability of bridged depending very much upon the impedance load presented by your speakers.
As you probably know, there are a number of paralleled and/or bridged LM3886 (as well as other chip amp based) projects over on diyaudio dot com.

Regards,
Paul
 
Hi again Paul
That's a very good idea to have the same circuitry, but for bridged amps...
The only thing that is not satisfactory for me, is that I'd like to have more power - I have a 87 db full range, it's ok for my power, but more power would be perfect.
I will email my friend from the DIY forum and ask him if he makes two boards with dual chips. Why didn't I think about that?
I made some research in the web for the DartZeel. I've allready seen it, in the web, never heard. They look beautiful inside and outside.
Regards,
Francisco
 
Hi, folks. My first post on at AudioShark BTW.

I've owned a couple of class D amp, one a Bel Canto eVo2i, the other a Class D Audio SDS258. Despite that I'm no longer using a class D amp, my impression based on the preceding is quite positive, though these amps might not be for everyone.

In case of both Tripath-based Bel Canto and the IRS2092-based CDA, highs were extended and free of 'etch' (to my ear); detail and transparency were excellent though 'air' and (let's call it), "spaciality" weren't as good as I've heard. Bass was very precise but rather lean. Although I was OK with it, I think many people would find the midrange rather thin or 'pale', the Bel more so than the CDA.

The thing about the CDA amps is their remarkable performance per dollar; the SDA models run in the US$600-700 range.

Just for fun, I think I'll order another SDS258 module and convert my original amp to twin bridged operation. The reason being that the IRS2092 reference design shows remarkably low distortion in bridged mode. Presumably this is because the full balance design cancels some distortion products.
 
Feanor said:
Hi, folks. My first post on at AudioShark BTW.

I've owned a couple of class D amp, one a Bel Canto eVo2i, the other a Class D Audio SDS258. Despite that I'm no longer using a class D amp, my impression based on the preceding is quite positive, though these amps might not be for everyone.

In case of both Tripath-based Bel Canto and the IRS2092-based CDA, highs were extended and free of 'etch' (to my ear); detail and transparency were excellent though 'air' and (let's call it), "spaciality" weren't as good as I've heard. Bass was very precise but rather lean. Although I was OK with it, I think many people would find the midrange rather thin or 'pale', the Bel more so than the CDA.

The thing about the CDA amps is their remarkable performance per dollar; the SDA models run in the US$600-700 range.

Just for fun, I think I'll order another SDS258 module and convert my original amp to twin bridged operation. The reason being that the IRS2092 reference design shows remarkably low distortion in bridged mode. Presumably this is because the full balance design cancels some distortion products.
Click to expand...

Hi fellow Canadian! :hi:
 
Feanor said:
Hi, folks. My first post on at AudioShark BTW.

I've owned a couple of class D amp, one a Bel Canto eVo2i, the other a Class D Audio SDS258. Despite that I'm no longer using a class D amp, my impression based on the preceding is quite positive, though these amps might not be for everyone.

In case of both Tripath-based Bel Canto and the IRS2092-based CDA, highs were extended and free of 'etch' (to my ear); detail and transparency were excellent though 'air' and (let's call it), "spaciality" weren't as good as I've heard. Bass was very precise but rather lean. Although I was OK with it, I think many people would find the midrange rather thin or 'pale', the Bel more so than the CDA.

The thing about the CDA amps is their remarkable performance per dollar; the SDA models run in the US$600-700 range.

Just for fun, I think I'll order another SDS258 module and convert my original amp to twin bridged operation. The reason being that the IRS2092 reference design shows remarkably low distortion in bridged mode. Presumably this is because the full balance design cancels some distortion products.
Click to expand...

Hi Feanor!
I am new here too, but anyway, wellcome!
 
Hello Paul
I sent an email to my friend and funny, he's working in a new project with the same circuitry but paralleled boards, so each mono will make 100 watts, wich is much better for my 87 db speakers. Although these LM amps with LDR may be very different from the JOB, I will buy the JOB too, in summer I guess, (hope!). I discussed about it with Joe and other members of this forum and I'm sure that I will be very pleased with. I will have the Nuforce monos se V3 in May or Juin because I will inherit them from a friend who are making a big system with my help. It will be a kind of gift. If anyone is interested, soon I will be able to make comparisons between JOB, LM3886 and NUFORCE, three totally different approaches, so a class d amp will be "judjed" in a vast context.
 
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Class D is still too sterile sounding IMO. I tried the ice power Stello amp, Atsah NC1200 monos, and NC400 monos. None of those were evolving, lacked air and transparency. The Job 225 amp solved all of those problems plus the Job sounds more holographic.

I know of two companies that has shelved their plans on bringing out a Hypex based amp, TRL and PS Audio, due the lack of emotion of the SQ.
 
But I would love to try this Class D amp, the Devialet 110 for $6495. It has everything in one package including the Dac. It looks like a million dollars.

Devialetmainpicfinal.jpg
 
ozarktom said:
But I would love to try this Class D amp, the Devialet 110 for $6495. It has everything in one package including the Dac. It looks like a million dollars.

Devialetmainpicfinal.jpg
Click to expand...

I had the 170 model in for review and loved it. The sound of the DAC and phonostage were excellent. It has a real sweet sound. But you need relatively efficient and easy to drive speakers. I've heard that even the 500 lacks "balls" to drive inefficient speakers with difficult loads.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
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