Can you name a preamp with the ..........

well; there is wide and deep like what a balloon does where everything gets blown up bigger. i'll call that 'bloom+'. it's an artifact that is a coloration.

then there is allowing a source or media to define an actual larger space but action within the space retains a realistic size and shape, allows more ambient clues, and define the actual recording venue more completely with lower noise and less distortion. this is where the recording starts prior to the first note the room comes into focus in your mind and there is a place where this music lives and breathes. the new version 2 of the battery powered darTZeel NHB-18NS does it this way. it's a space machine that allows for every recording to sound more different and when that media has the space, width and depth then you get it. but when it's not there in the recording, there is no sameness of an inflated picture. sometimes the soundstage is flat and narrow. sometimes an instrument is close mic'd and larger than life, and other times things are small and short.

of course; some preamps have a measure of each of those characteristics. there is no right and wrong, but a matter of preference.

personally; give me truth and allow the source and recording and mixing engineer to show their stuff.
 
For me the closest i have experienced in looking into a recording through the preamp has been with MSB & Soulution.
 
Hi Mike,

I have no doubt that you love the new Dart pre. I had the original version and enjoyed it but the battery kind of drove me nuts. Sometimes I have music playing for 12-15 hours daily. Of course, not all active listening. The battery would drain, charge, drain, charge in endless cycles. Within a short period the battery life was virtually non-existent and in a constant state of charge. I don't know if the new units have a full AC overide but I eventually sold it.

I will say that my GAT on the Dart 108 was sublime.



Mike Lavigne said:
well; there is wide and deep like what a balloon does where everything gets blown up bigger. i'll call that 'bloom+'. it's an artifact that is a coloration.

then there is allowing a source or media to define an actual larger space but action within the space retains a realistic size and shape, allows more ambient clues, and define the actual recording venue more completely with lower noise and less distortion. this is where the recording starts prior to the first note the room comes into focus in your mind and there is a place where this music lives and breathes. the new version 2 of the battery powered darTZeel NHB-18NS does it this way. it's a space machine that allows for every recording to sound more different and when that media has the space, width and depth then you get it. but when it's not there in the recording, there is no sameness of an inflated picture. sometimes the soundstage is flat and narrow. sometimes an instrument is close mic'd and larger than life, and other times things are small and short.

of course; some preamps have a measure of each of those characteristics. there is no right and wrong, but a matter of preference.

personally; give me truth and allow the source and recording and mixing engineer to show their stuff.
Click to expand...
 
Yep, those First Sound units are in league with the absolute best. Save for lack of remote, I'd have strongly considered when I chose my Ref10.
 
joeinid said:
Hi Mike,

I have no doubt that you love the new Dart pre. I had the original version and enjoyed it but the battery kind of drove me nuts. Sometimes I have music playing for 12-15 hours daily. Of course, not all active listening. The battery would drain, charge, drain, charge in endless cycles. Within a short period the battery life was virtually non-existent and in a constant state of charge. I don't know if the new units have a full AC overide but I eventually sold it.

I will say that my GAT on the Dart 108 was sublime.
Click to expand...

the new battery set-up with the dart pre is much better; with something like 30,000 cycles in the batteries, consistent 8+ hour life, and they sound quite good when they switch to A/C too, and if it's casual listening you would likely not even notice. at audio shows when it switched to A/C an hour later you can switch it back and it goes another 3-4 hours.....which covers most long days with battery even in that environment. and if you want low noise and actual space and ambient retrieval this is it.

compare it to the variable of tubes and their life cycles and uncertainly of what is what i'll take batteries all day long.
 
joeinid said:
Can you name a preamp with the biggest, widest, tallest, deepest and most layered three dimensional sound stage?I am curious, ie your experience, what you value most in a preamp.
Click to expand...

CAT Legend with Black Path Caps and built in phono stage. Sorry but no remote. I really thought I'd miss the remote but I don't really miss it at all. I put on a record, dial the volume to where I want it, and sit down and listen to the whole side. CAT has fine tuned their volume control on this model to pretty small volume increments so its easy to get it just right. I set the volume within about a 3 click range on the knob and leave it alone. Sort of a purist way to do it but no problem after getting used to it. Plus IMHO, the CAT pretty much beats my GAT2. Not that the GAT2 is a slouch; its a great preamp! But the tonality, dynamics, presence, sound stage and imaging of the Legend are just in another league.
 
Mike said:
For tubes: VAC Statement or REF10.

For SS: the one you already have. Ayre KX-R Twenty. Although my Vitus SL-102 Mk2 is right up there.

On a budget: used REF5SE. What do I say to myself when I remember letting that one go? DAMN IT! DAMN IT! DAMN IT!
Click to expand...

I haven’t heard the VAC but would agree on AR Ref 10. It killed the old Dartzeel and the Ypsilon PST 1 with Constellation Inspiration going into Alexia, Lampi as the source. The soundstage was gigantic, pressed back and sideways, and loads of muscle and slam. The attributes in Roy Gregory’s compare with VTL 7.5 and CJ Gat were visible (I haven’t compared with the other 2).

I am not a big fan of lower AR models because though great on air and midrange, they congested on orchestral, but I think probably due to the separate power supply they got rid of that problem
 
Mike Lavigne said:
the new battery set-up with the dart pre is much better; with something like 30,000 cycles in the batteries, consistent 8+ hour life, and they sound quite good when they switch to A/C too, and if it's casual listening you would likely not even notice. at audio shows when it switched to A/C an hour later you can switch it back and it goes another 3-4 hours.....which covers most long days with battery even in that environment. and if you want low noise and actual space and ambient retrieval this is it.

compare it to the variable of tubes and their life cycles and uncertainly of what is what i'll take batteries all day long.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

Whats your detail thoughts on the differences with the DART batt vs AC when you switch over. i have always found battery supply units to lack the jump and slam of a good AC/PSU unit, until on one of my bespoke pre's we raised the voltage to a pretty high number above typical supply voltage with the batteries ...





Regards
 
bonzo said:
I haven’t heard the VAC but would agree on AR Ref 10. It killed the old Dartzeel and the Ypsilon PST 1 with Constellation Inspiration going into Alexia, Lampi as the source. The soundstage was gigantic, pressed back and sideways, and loads of muscle and slam. The attributes in Roy Gregory’s compare with VTL 7.5 and CJ Gat were visible (I haven’t compared with the other 2).

I am not a big fan of lower AR models because though great on air and midrange, they congested on orchestral, but I think probably due to the separate power supply they got rid of that problem
Click to expand...

The AR REF 40 Anniversary has the same kind of soundstage retrieval, it also has a massive 40 pound separate power supply .......

Cheers.....
 
a.wayne said:
Hi Mike,

Whats your detail thoughts on the differences with the DART batt vs AC when you switch over. i have always found battery supply units to lack the jump and slam of a good AC/PSU unit, until on one of my bespoke pre's we raised the voltage to a pretty high number above typical supply voltage with the batteries ...

Regards
Click to expand...

there is a difference when you are paying attention. but can't say it would have equal degree of difference in every system.

in my system the difference on batteries is degree of refinement and a slight degree of micro-detail.....less processed.....more real......a greater sense of vividness.....more 'there' and less veiled......a 'live-ness' if you will + slight additional ease and continuousness.

the effect is subtle, and interestingly more noticed by how you feel about the music than what you consciously hear. it's like you go 'what's different?'....then see the red 'A/C only' light is on. then you listen closely and pick up on the differences.

as far as dynamics, well.......I've had extended conversations with Herve Delatraz (him talking--me listening) about how the battery and impedance is much improved and it's advantages to dynamics compared to direct A/C. honestly it's over my head and I cannot begin to relate it. I just know I've not heard a 'non-horn' system do dynamics as well as mine, and for full range speakers I've heard none that can touch mine.....especially related to the 'jump' factor and 'life' of the music.
 
jdandy said:
For me, it is my McIntosh C1000C/P solid state preamplifier. I also owned the C1000C/T tube preamplifier I used in a separate sound system but discovered the C1000C/P solid state preamplifier was quieter, particularly the moving coil phono stage. This preamplifier is a true statement piece that delivers a tremendously realistic performance. The power supply is dual mono, and completely independent in its own component enclosure from the dual mono and fully balanced audio circuits in the preamplifier enclosure. The C1000C/P has all the control functions I need and none that I don't require. The build quality and parts selection are top notch. It provides four balanced and four unbalanced outputs per channel for unsurpassed connectivity. Best of all the C1000C/P sounds superb, is dead quiet, incredibly dynamic, and creates an astonishingly wide, deep, and holographic sound stage. It is highly unlikely I will ever part with this preamplifier. It provides everything I need to reproduce a thoroughly believable and completely enjoyable audio performance.


C1000-1.jpg
Click to expand...

Hello Dan,

Yes. The C1000P had the biggest scene in all dimensions that I experienced in my system at that time.
I would be curious to have it again in my system which is very different now. Especially to compare its scene with the CJ GAT which also have a very big scene. But I do guess that it will win again in this field.
Musically speaking though, in terms of pure musical enjoyment, the C1000P may not be among the very best in my opinion. It is very slightly dark sounding and it misses a few degrees of excitement compared to other designs.
But when you look at all the features, especially the fully balance design and the great inboard phonostage, the C1000P remains a super great choice. (I have serious doubts that the new C1100 could be at the same level of quality). Especially with the mighty 2301's.
 
I was impressed with my ARC REF 3 years ago until I upgraded to the BAT REX. It was equal in width and had depth of stage that was really great. That being said, the AudioNet PRE G2 preamp I own now is on the same level or better than anything I have heard or owned. It's a special preamp.
 
Jerome W said:
Hello Dan,

Yes. The C1000P had the biggest scene in all dimensions that I experienced in my system at that time.
I would be curious to have it again in my system which is very different now. Especially to compare its scene with the CJ GAT which also have a very big scene. But I do guess that it will win again in this field.
Musically speaking though, in terms of pure musical enjoyment, the C1000P may not be among the very best in my opinion. It is very slightly dark sounding and it misses a few degrees of excitement compared to other designs.
But when you look at all the features, especially the fully balance design and the great inboard phonostage, the C1000P remains a super great choice. (I have serious doubts that the new C1100 could be at the same level of quality). Especially with the mighty 2301's.
Click to expand...

Jerome.......I appreciate you expressing your opinion. I do not agree with you that the C1000C/P may not be among the very best. To begin with, the subjectivity of sound and listening to music is never an absolute. I am not discounting your ability to make accurate and rational decisions about your personal audio experiences but those decisions are not necessarily unconditional. The many variables with respect to ancillary components, cables, power conditioning, speakers, and isolation, not to mention the source recordings themselves, create a recipe for sound reproduction that can be shifted one way or the other with the slightest change of ingredients. This makes it nearly impossible to definitively make statements that are universally valid among all with respect to any component's sound. Essentially, it always ends up revolving around a personal opinion. We all have plenty of those.

Saying a component is among the best is not saying a component is THE best. Personally, I do not think any group of audio enthusiasts can agree without exception on the superiority of one component over all others. None the less, there are many excellent audio components that remain highly respected. It is my opinion the McIntosh C1000C/P ranks well among the best.

Michael Fremer had this to say about the C1000 in Stereophile magazine; "The McIntosh C1000 combines ultralow noise and ultra low distortion with transparency, harmonic completeness, and, thanks to its ultralow noise floor, resolution of low level-level microdynamics that is unprecedented in my experience. It delivered unrivaled image specificity without unnatural edge, layer on layer of detail, transient speed and purity without sounding hyper, and delicacy and suppleness without sounding soft and soupy." I am in complete agreement with Michael's comments.
 
jdandy said:
Jerome.......I appreciate you expressing your opinion. I do not agree with you that the C1000C/P may not be among the very best. To begin with, the subjectivity of sound and listening to music is never an absolute. I am not discounting your ability to make accurate and rational decisions about your personal audio experiences but those decisions are not necessarily unconditional. The many variables with respect to ancillary components, cables, power conditioning, speakers, and isolation, not to mention the source recordings themselves, create a recipe for sound reproduction that can be shifted one way or the other with the slightest change of ingredients. This makes it nearly impossible to definitively make statements that are universally valid among all with respect to any component's sound. Essentially, it always ends up revolving around a personal opinion. We all have plenty of those.

Saying a component is among the best is not saying a component is THE best. Personally, I do not think any group of audio enthusiasts can agree without exception on the superiority of one component over all others. None the less, there are many excellent audio components that remain highly respected. It is my opinion the McIntosh C1000C/P ranks well among the best.

Michael Fremer had this to say about the C1000 in Stereophile magazine; "The McIntosh C1000 combines ultralow noise and ultra low distortion with transparency, harmonic completeness, and, thanks to its ultralow noise floor, resolution of low level-level microdynamics that is unprecedented in my experience. It delivered unrivaled image specificity without unnatural edge, layer on layer of detail, transient speed and purity without sounding hyper, and delicacy and suppleness without sounding soft and soupy." I am in complete agreement with Michael's comments.
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Hi Dan,

Of course subjectivity reigns in our hobby. You will notice that I stated "in my opinion".
This is just my opinion. Based on my experience of various preamps and power amps. For my sole and only "taste".
I lived 2 happy years with the C1000P. But I got at least 5 preamps that are just better sounding to my ears, and by a significant margin. They are the CJ Premier LS17, the GAT, the Shindos Giscours and Monbrison and the Manley 300B Neo Classic.
So the C1000P may well be among the best preamps ever made. I agree with that. But the Pantheon of my ears chose other pieces.
That's not to say that any music lover will think like me. I just stated my experience.
As I said, I spent two beautiful years with the C1000P. But after these two years I got bored.
I just have no other words. The music was always sounding the same. I do not mean that the C1000 is colored. But to me it is not as full, as rich as some others.
I live with the Shindo Giscours since 6 years now.
Not only I did not loose my passion for it. But it still amazes me each time I turn it on. I know that you feel the same with your C1000P.
Best or not, that is the only thing that matters.
 
Jerome.......I have followed your system(s) evolution with great interest through the years. You navigated another path that has certainly pleased many people. It is clear you are happy with your choices. Like you with your Shindo gear, I too have lived with my McIntosh C1000C/P for years, eight to be exact. During that time it has driven many different amplifiers, stereo and mono MC275's, MC352, MC501's, MC452, MC601's, and now four years driving my MC2301's. The C1000C/P never ceases to amaze me. Something else worthy of attention, it is flawless in its operation and has never caused me one single problem. We both have audio gear we revere and look forward to enjoying. You are correct, that's the only thing that matters. Here's wishing you many years of audio bliss with your fine sound systems.
 
jdandy said:
Jerome.......I have followed your system(s) evolution with great interest through the years. You navigated another path that has certainly pleased many people. It is clear you are happy with your choices. Like you with your Shindo gear, I too have lived with my McIntosh C1000C/P for years, eight to be exact. During that time it has driven many different amplifiers, stereo and mono MC275's, MC352, MC501's, MC452, MC601's, and now four years driving my MC2301's. The C1000C/P never ceases to amaze me. Something else worthy of attention, it is flawless in its operation and has never caused me one single problem. We both have audio gear we revere and look forward to enjoying. You are correct, that's the only thing that matters. Here's wishing you many years of audio bliss with your fine sound systems.
Click to expand...

Hi Dan,

I see time and time again how the synergy between preamp and amp from the same company can make a huge difference in sound quality. The fact that you drove six different McIntosh amplifiers with the C1000C/P and got great sound each time bears this out. It must be one fine preamp!

Best,
Ken
 
Alpinist said:
Hi Dan,

I see time and time again how the synergy between preamp and amp from the same company can make a huge difference in sound quality. The fact that you drove six different McIntosh amplifiers with the C1000C/P and got great sound each time bears this out. It must be one fine preamp!

Best,
Ken
Click to expand...

Ken.......I sure think so. The C1000C/P and the MC2301's will be here for life.
 
Joe.......My apology. I did not mean for my initial post about my preamp to side track your original post and thread. There are so many other premium preamplifiers to talk about.
 
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