Brilliant Art Dudley's article

[rbbert]

I have an inherent bias in favor of DBT to detect differences, although not preferences. Despite that, it's just too difficult to design and perform a good (read: adequate) DBT for most types of audio equipment, so although I have that bias intellectually in practical terms it's almost never achievable. I might just point out here that this difficulty (designing and performing an adequate DBT) is a BIG problem today in all branches of science, unfortunately. It's the main reason you might read about "breakthroughs" one day that are either flat out contradicted or more often appropriately minmized by practical experience and later better designed scientific tests.

As far as short-term vs. long-term memory goes, there's some facinating research that suggests that we "re-write" our long-term memory each time we use it. This helps explain why some memories seem clear and sharp but are wrong!

 

[mep]

I have an inherent bias in favor of DBT to detect differences, although not preferences. Despite that, it's just too difficult to design and perform a good (read: adequate) DBT for most types of audio equipment, so although I have that bias intellectually in practical terms it's almost never achievable. I might just point out here that this difficulty (designing and performing an adequate DBT) is a BIG problem today in all branches of science, unfortunately. It's the main reason you might read about "breakthroughs" one day that are either flat out contradicted or more often appropriately minmized by practical experience and later better designed scientific tests.

Thank you for making my points. So why do people keep discussing blind tests like they are as easy as blowing your nose and as prevalent as Starbucks coffee shops?

As far as short-term vs. long-term memory goes, there's some facinating research that suggests that we "re-write" our long-term memory each time we use it. This helps explain why some memories seem clear and sharp but are wrong!

Are you sure? I thought short-term memory gets written over/dumped unless it's converted to long-term memory and long-term memory is just that-long term.

 

[rbbert]

That is in fact conventional wisdom re: long-term memory, but there's a fair amount of recent research that suggests just what I posted. However, that doesn't seem to always happen, and no one (AFAIK) knows why. I haven't tried to find it online but that's probably doable.

 

[Mike]

"By conducting carefully controlled blind speaker tests, then measuring all the speakers to see what sonic characteristics appealed to the listeners in the tests, we were able to figure out what matters and what doesn't." - Paul Barton, Founder and Chief Designer



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[rbbert]

"By conducting carefully controlled blind speaker tests, then measuring all the speakers to see what sonic characteristics appealed to the listeners in the tests, we were able to figure out what matters and what doesn't." - Paul Barton, Founder and Chief Designer

More feasible for a manufacturer, but even so I bet they are only listening to (testing) one speaker at a time, not a stereo pair, which does qualify their findings somewhat. As has been discussed elsewhere, dipoles are at a significant disadvantage in this setting.

 

[Mike]

I think blind tests are more entertainment and fun than pure science, but Paul Barton has tremendous respect in the industry and I found his use of blind tests interesting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Tomelex]

Clearly we all come at this hobby with our own preferences. Early on my involvement was technical and experimental. I learned early that stereo can not reproduce a natural setting of music no matter how hard you wish it were so. So, I accepted that reality and immediately the "strain" of active listening etc went away.

For me, what replaced it was being able to hear details in the music. Now if you think about that, details are presented either by particular odd distortions and or by equipment which is more accurate to the source. When folks talk about fleshed out sound, that may mean more detail but more often than not it means harmonic embellishment or FR variations. What does this have to do with testing not knowing what the gear is?

Well, if you have confidence in your hearing abilities and what you like, then the process does not matter as much as the destination, and removal of all clues to what you are listening to also relieves you of all the stresses that are secretly imposed when you know what the gear before you is. If you have confidence in your taste and preferences, you know nearly immediately if you like the way something "sounds" or not. If you don't, IMO, you don't know your audio self and perhaps you just like to wander about the soundscape. I don't care either way as this is about preferences, and preferences are not up for debate.

 

[Mike]

Welcome Tom!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[AJ Soundfield]

My favorite audio blind test
More
and auditions
Those seem to work just fine :congrats:

 

[JDLaudio]

I wonder what blind folks do when selecting equipment ?? Do they have the salesman describe the looks of the gear ? Seems to me I've read that blind people are much more in tune to their surrounding environment.....especially sound. Are they at a dis-advantage ??
I love audio jewelry as much as anyone......but I never make excuses for poor sounding gear (no matter how pretty !!).


Jerry-

 

[Myles B. Astor]

That is in fact conventional wisdom re: long-term memory, but there's a fair amount of recent research that suggests just what I posted. However, that doesn't seem to always happen, and no one (AFAIK) knows why. I haven't tried to find it online but that's probably doable.

The only thing you can say about neuroscience is that there's a new paper published every minute. What was dogma ten years ago is discarded history today.

Rewritten is but one concern. Processing and even the use of primary vs. secondary neuronal circuitry is worthy of consideration. The Brain That Changes Itself is an interesting read and shows how the idea of select areas of the brain carrying out specific tasks is a myth. As is the old right vs. left brain stuff that continues to be promulgated even today.

 

[Jerome W]

Sure. Or longer. As long as you don't know which is which throughout the listening, it's blind.


That's one possibility, but not always necessary. "Blind" doesn't necessarily mean you can't see, it means know. Could be as simple as hooking both to a high quality pre with Input 1 and Input2. You could have the whole thing in full view. Just no peeking at the cabling to see which goes to which, or any "pop" sound or flashing lights depending on which was switched to, etc, i.e. no "tells" to identify which was playing.


Yes, precisely. That is by definition, what a blind audio test is. Sound>ears. No looks, no price, not what you read someone else say, etc, etc. Just sound>ears. That's all you have to judge with. Can be quite an eye opener! Or a can opener.:lol:


Bingo. That's why we all own different stuff. I don't listen for pleasure at home, blind. I allow all my biases and senses to be the final arbiter of what pleases me. Be that price, looks, status, reviews, etc, etc., along with the sound>ears.
I suspect you do too.

cheers,

AJ

Sorry AJ.
You could do that for Dacs but not for tube amps. They should not be on while not connected to a load and you won't let them on all the time.
Really not practical.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk

 

[BlueFox]

Just read the article. Basically, all he is saying is if you do not think cables, or whatever, make a difference then fine. Just stop your screaming that people who think they make a difference are mentally weak, and are being fooled by charlatans.

Also, John Atkinson's negative review of the $33k Nola Metro Grand Reference speaker should put a stake in the heart of those whiners who say reviews are bogus, biased, and always positive.

 

[BruceLet]

Speaking strictly for myself, I find short term analysis of a piece of equipment or a system is almost useless to me….whether I like it or not and what is better, because of certain qualities that get my attention, does not give me the info I need. Unfortunately, I don't have faith in my ability to demo something and know what it will offer to my long term listening enjoyment. Many of the things that jump out in audiophile terms are impressive enough, but don't necessarily provide enjoyment later on. In fact, I find some of them become tiresome and distracting, demanding more attention than the music. The test for me often happens too late. A couple of weeks later, sitting in my listening room….if I am not turning down the volume or leaving the room after an hour or so, or playing the same fifteen albums over and over and over again, then I know I have a keeper.

 

[the professor]

+1

I can weed out a bunch of equipment after listening to the first song, but the true test for me takes a few weeks.

Speaking strictly for myself, I find short term analysis of a piece of equipment or a system is almost useless to me….whether I like it or not and what is better, because of certain qualities that get my attention, does not give me the info I need. Unfortunately, I don't have faith in my ability to demo something and know what it will offer to my long term listening enjoyment. Many of the things that jump out in audiophile terms are impressive enough, but don't necessarily provide enjoyment later on. In fact, I find some of them become tiresome and distracting, demanding more attention than the music. The test for me often happens too late. A couple of weeks later, sitting in my listening room….if I am not turning down the volume or leaving the room after an hour or so, or playing the same fifteen albums over and over and over again, then I know I have a keeper.

 

[rbbert]

Speaking strictly for myself, I find short term analysis of a piece of equipment or a system is almost useless to me….whether I like it or not and what is better, because of certain qualities that get my attention, does not give me the info I need. Unfortunately, I don't have faith in my ability to demo something and know what it will offer to my long term listening enjoyment. Many of the things that jump out in audiophile terms are impressive enough, but don't necessarily provide enjoyment later on. In fact, I find some of them become tiresome and distracting, demanding more attention than the music. The test for me often happens too late. A couple of weeks later, sitting in my listening room….if I am not turning down the volume or leaving the room after an hour or so, or playing the same fifteen albums over and over and over again, then I know I have a keeper.

Says the man whose speakers were designed with the help (significant help) of blind testing

 

[Face]

Sorry AJ.
You could do that for Dacs but not for tube amps. They should not be on while not connected to a load and you won't let them on all the time.
Really not practical.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk

A load resistor really isn't that difficult to hook up interim.

Says the man whose speakers were designed with the help (significant help) of blind testing

+1.

 

[mep]

Says the man whose speakers were designed with the help (significant help) of blind testing

So true. Harman is one of the few places where actual blind testing takes place after the participants have been sheep-dipped by Harman in what to listen for in their speakers vice everyone else's speakers.

 

[rbbert]

So true. Harman is one of the few places where actual blind testing takes place after the participants have been sheep-dipped by Harman in what to listen for in their speakers vice everyone else's speakers.

I'm not quite sure that's fair to say, although I have never participated. Have you?

 

[mep]

I'm not quite sure that's fair to say, although I have never participated. Have you?

Nope. Just read about it. I think you would have to be extremely naive to think that when Harman is 'training' their listeners that they aren't training people on what to listen for with regards to how Harman designs speakers vs. how other manufacturers are designing their speakers.