- Thread Author
- #21
The Lumin A1 is $7200 and the S1 is $12,500. Currently the Lumin S1 also includes two free L-1's as well.
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Berkley Alpha Reference DAC (mini) Review
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
The Lumin A1 is $7200 and the S1 is $12,500. Currently the Lumin S1 also includes two free L-1's as well.
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dlb2
New member
Thanks Mike. So for a lot less money someone could own a Lumin that sounds just as good, has more inputs and plays dsd?
I'm not picking on the Berkley, but it seems like every month there's another "the next big dac" out. Why would someone pay that much money for what seems an incomplete piece of gear?
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- Thread Author
- #24
Not exactly Doug. The Lumin has no digital inputs except the Ethernet connection (only Digital Outputs - BNC and HDMI Audio). The Berkley has BNC, AEU and Toslink inputs, but no USB as Berkley believes its best to have the USB input handled by their $2000 Alpha USB box (which I've heard is excellent by the way).
I could live with the inputs, extra box, etc. of the BADA and I can definitely live with its sound for redbook, but I really want DSD without a computer/software/conversion involved and certainly without the DSD to PCM conversion (either on the fly or batch). Last year I tried several different programs for converting DSD to PCM (including Korg Audiogate) and in playback of the DSD vs PCM file, there was NO DOUBT AT ALL that the DSD file was superior than the DSD converted to PCM file. The conversion process is also quite lengthy.
Now, I have a question that I'm hoping someone can answer: has anyone compared a DSD to PCM file conversion vs DoP. Meaning, is there a sonic difference between converting a DSD file to PCM format vs DSD over PCM? I think I know the answer that DoP (DSD over PCM) is just a simple vehicle for DSD files to travel and is not really a conversion....but I wanted to confirm.
Regardless Doug, if someone is in the "I don't give two hoots about DSD" crowd or in the "I love my Windows PC and want it by my side at all times and DSD to PCM conversion is fine by me" crowd, then the Berkley DAC is definitely one to consider.
As I said, I completely understand Berkley's position on this, but for $16,000 (plus $2000 for another box - not to mention more for $$ power cable, digital cables, etc. for that box), I think I would want DSD.
Here's the way I would look at it: putting the Lumin aside for a minute (because its no secret I'm a big fan), I ask myself, does the total Berkley cost w/USB ($18,000) beat out say the new Esoteric K-01x ($19,995) which not only includes a multitude of digital inputs - including USB - but is also a Transport and Double DSD DAC in one? OR would the tube based Lampizator Big 7 or even the tube based EAR Acute 4 or Aesthetix better provide that organic magic to digital? I mean, a BDP-2 and a Lampizator Big 7 would cost less than the Berkley. But the concerns of Lampizator QC still lingers.
As I said in my system goals for 2015 post, I'm definitely considering the Esoteric K-01x (with SRS clock). But I am also VERY curious about the Lampizator Big 7 DAC. Putting my concerns of Lampizator QC aside for a minute, there have been enough people I really trust (other than the world's biggest Lampizator fan Norman), who have indicated its a game changer. This does not mean for a second I would get rid of my Lumin because I am fundamentally opposed to having a Mac or Windows computer in the audio chain. The Lumin is definitely my preference as a player. So if I ended up with the Lumin S1 feeding the Lampizator Big 7 for example, the benefit is that when the Lampizator breaks, I have the terrific DAC in the Lumin S1 to listen to AND there also might be material I prefer the DAC in the Lumin over the Lampizator.
I then circle back to the Esoteric K-01x. Would love to compare it head to head with the Berkley, Lampizator, Lumin, etc. to see just how good its proprietary Double DSD capable DAC really is.
What we are seeing is that one doesn't need to spend $80,000 or $100,000 on digital to get great sound. There are plenty of great choices all under $20,000 - some WELL under $20,000.
Anyway.....I'm just thinking out loud here.....
BlueFox
New member
In my mind, the BARD, at $16k, is the SOTA for digital today. While $16k is preferable to the $100k dCS stack, it really demonstrates that next year either something better will come along, most likely at a lower cost. Or, what I hope is, that something equal will be out, but at a much lower cost.
So, if you can afford it, and absolutely must have the best now, then go for it. Now if I can just convince myself I don't need any more power cord upgrades then 2015 will be a frugal year for me.
So, if you can afford it, and absolutely must have the best now, then go for it. Now if I can just convince myself I don't need any more power cord upgrades then 2015 will be a frugal year for me.
- Thread Author
- #26
Bud - it will be very interesting to see how the new Bryston BDA-3 sounds, and also what new digital products come out of CES next week.
BlueFox
New member
I believe I read somewhere James saying it will be similar to the current BDA-2 with DSD decoding, and HDMI ports being the main difference.
Audioseduction
Active member
Guys, keep your eye out for the new Bel Canto e.One DAC3.7vb with the femto clock this year.
KeithR
Active member
Mike- have you ever owned a regular alpha DAC? Any comparisons?
Isn't the Oppo 105D able to play high res files stored on USB drives/sticks?
This should be an apples to apples comparison, $16k BARD VS $35k Vivaldi DAC.
This should be an apples to apples comparison, $16k BARD VS $35k Vivaldi DAC.
The Lumin should be a lot cheaper. The basic Lumin A1 was $7K before any discounts, so I imagine the S1 should be about $10-12K before discounts? Both chepaer than the BADA ref and if you include the $1500 USB converter, even cheaper still.
You should PM Mike for "forum" prices.
Julot
New member
IF they play in the same league, the Lumin sure is considerably bettter value. But as Mike pointed out, his protocol is unlikely to have allowed the best to shine in the Berkeley. Toslink + Oppo: you're listening to the limitations of the digital source, cable and interface here, not the DAC.
This is all the more the case since the main strength of a Lumin is the very short, integrated connection from streamer to DAC (why good streamers don't even have a digital input that would let you use their DAC separately).
A rational comparison Berkeley to Lumin would be with a Baetis server using a good AES/EBU cable, and with same routers and NAS and ethernet cables. Then we're talking a price ratio of 3:1. Better not be in the same league.
(Not to mention one could also compare with my current solution...)
This is all the more the case since the main strength of a Lumin is the very short, integrated connection from streamer to DAC (why good streamers don't even have a digital input that would let you use their DAC separately).
A rational comparison Berkeley to Lumin would be with a Baetis server using a good AES/EBU cable, and with same routers and NAS and ethernet cables. Then we're talking a price ratio of 3:1. Better not be in the same league.
(Not to mention one could also compare with my current solution...)
The Sandman
Member
Even more importantly, the Reference, though broken in, was added to Mike's system cold and was only playing in his system for a couple of hours. But it takes 12 hours for the unit to fully warm up and reach thermal equilibrium - Berkeley advises against critical listening during the warm-up. So, cold Reference, Oppo/toslink, no high res (nor any HDCD's which the Reference loves), and still IMO there was no comparison to the Lumin (even with it's optional power supply). The Lumin is no match for the Reference.
- Thread Author
- #34
Yes, and we thought of that, but we didn't have a lot of time to find a USB stick (I know I have one somewhere!) and copy files.
- Thread Author
- #35
As I mentioned in the review, on redbook, the Berkley sounded better. But, we never compared Hi Res nor DSD converted to PCM. That's where there could be substantial differences. So, if DSD is important to you, then it's not a good choice as you will have to convert all your DSD files to PCM and in my experiments, that was far from ideal. And as you point out, with the Berkley, you still need to buy a player (like the BDP-2) or computer....so add in that along with the USB and you are close to double the cost.
I just can't give up DSD capabilities, especially after comparing the DSD file (and high res PCM file) to a direct copy of the Master Tape on my R2R (here: http://audioshark.org/general-audio-discussion-15/dsd-vs-pcm-compared-what-6200.html#.VKaZcYrF9H0). The DSD file sounds spooky close to the R2R. The PCM didn't. But others may not care about DSD.
Myles B. Astor
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2013
- Messages
- 2,884
Even more importantly, the Reference, though broken in, was added to Mike's system cold and was only playing in his system for a couple of hours. But it takes 12 hours for the unit to fully warm up and reach thermal equilibrium - Berkeley advises against critical listening during the warm-up. So, cold Reference, Oppo/toslink, no high res (nor any HDCD's which the Reference loves), and still IMO there was no comparison to the Lumin (even with it's optional power supply). The Lumin is no match for the Reference.
Howard, I don't think anyone should listen to any digital component, assuming it's broken in of course, for at least 24 hrs after plugging in. Not unique to the Berkley and it's been true for two decades.
But Mike unfortunately had a limited time to audition the unit.
Personally I hate to see another format war.
- Thread Author
- #37
You are correct Norman. The A1 is $7200 and the S1 is $12,500 (before any discounts).
audio.bill
Active member
George - I'd be most interested in learning about your impressions of the new BC DAC3.7VB, what you may have compared it to, etc. Rather than sending this thread off topic you might consider starting a new thread. Thanks in advance, and I look forward to hearing more from you about the new BC.
I am now using the Berkeley with the original Baetis server, via the spdif connector. I have not sorted everything out yet, as it is in a completely new system. I have the Berkeley paired with the Pass XS-150 monoblocks, MBL 101's, and NO PREAMP. It's also a completely new room.......so I am starting from scratch.
Redbook is sounding great out of the box. This dac definitely fleshes out more fine detail, and the tonality of instruments is spot-on.....IMHO. DSD is being converted on the fly thru J River, and sounds slightly better than redbook. But for some reason I cannot get any playback when set to 176k......which is what the default setting is suppose to be set at for the conversion. I have to leave the setting at 96k....to get playback ?? So I have issues to deal with before I get optium DSD playback. I have also never had the dac warmed up longer than a couple of hours, so I will try leaving the unit on for possibly better SQ.
I will update after more experimentation with wire changes, speaker placement, etc.
The Sandman
Member
The Reference isn't meant to be turned off - there is no power switch. It should always be on when plugged in and hooked up in your system. :weird: