Battle over at What Hi-Fi
- Thread starter Michaels HiFi
- Start date
I am in fact a Tannoy fanboy, but certainly I've also noted many quality issues with them, going back more than 10 years ago. Like you also stated, I noticed the issues - but perhaps others (including "professional" reviewers) did not. Funny side-story: few years ago I bought Tannoy Glenair 10's from TMR (the big Colorado-based reseller that claims to test everything). They were listed cheap, with detailed notes from prior owner on how to position them for decent bass response, and warnings about proper amp matching. Well they sounded beyond awful. Broken. I knew what they were supposed to sound like (really good), from prior experience. Turns out they drivers were wired WRONG internally. Exact same way, both speakers. Easy fix and they're amazing. Don't know if it was prior owner's fault, or if they slipped out like that from Scotland, but the latter wouldn't surprise me. And then BOTH TMR and prior owner thinking "yeah that's what they're supposed to sound like" when they were wired wrong?! I've also seen & heard plenty of Tannoys from new. Some of those models (definitely from Scotland factory back then) just left me shaking my head.
I've put up with the various Tannoy issues because I love the sound when it's "right". Total lack of communication / transparency and patchy support with Tannoy also goes back MORE than 20 years ago, when I got into this hobby. New management, same story - a few times now. So the "Made in Scotland" badge doesn't mean a quality assurance to me lol. I was actually hopeful back when Upscale acquired the line, but that clearly didn't pan out.
All parties involved in this squabble come off as extremely annoying and frustrating people. These threads are just meaningless forum churn for drama's sake. I agree with the chorus here - put up something substantiated or just shut up and let the drama play out in HiFi Plus or wherever it "wants" to live.
Fyne speakers look cool, I may check them out some day but I've got a lifetime of Tannoys & spare drivers here if I don't find something else that is extremely compelling. Not a huge fan of some of the aesthetic choices on the Classic / Vintage lines, and hate the rubber surrounds, but something like a Classic 12 could tempt me for my 2nd system. But I'm sure as heck not going to assume they have their act together just because "Made in Scotland".
Tannoy:
- Love the sound
- Love the company history
- Love the dual-concentric
- Hate the company's incarnations for at least 20 years
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Once again...
Transfer functions (and, all the loudspeaker is doing is performing a transfer function) are not influenced by the geographic location of where a product is assembled, but rather HOW effectively the Control Factors can mediate the functional response while being robust to the influence of Noise Factors (e.g. mfg. variance, materials variance, part-to-part variance, etc.). This is why good engineers do...DOEs.
A textbook of example of this is the only country that screwed up manufacturing Honda automobiles was Britain, with the disastrous Sterling automobile brand "venture". A case-history of what NOT to do.
QUALITY is NOT the result of WHERE products are made; it's the result of HOW they are made.
sonata
New member
"... All parties involved in this squabble come off as extremely annoying and frustrating people. These threads are just meaningless forum churn for drama's sake. I agree with the chorus here - put up something substantiated or just shut up and let the drama play out in HiFi Plus or wherever it "wants" to live. ... "
Amen brother.
Amen brother.
still-one
Active member
Stephen. In general I agree with your statement that where geographically a product is manufactured/assembled is less of a factor in quality than the capability of the processes.
One factor that should not be overlooked is the difference in statistically acceptable results and customer perceived quality. Take for example when the Nummi plant was producing both the Corolla and GM Prism. Same suppliers, same manufacturing processes yet significantly different customer quality results.
Lexus customer quality has always been rated top notch. Was it all process related or was it due to the high number of quality audits/auditors I encountered during the assembly process?
I almost forgot about the Sterling. That was the temporary company vehicle I drove for a couple of months in Belgium until my E Class was delivered.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Hi Jim, yes, you raise some valid and pertinent points for this discussion, so thank you for sharing your insights and experiences. My comments were specifically addressing the "perception" that products made in "Asia" are intrinsically inferior to products manufactured in the UK, simply because those products were made in....Asia.
Cheers.
Shadowfax
Active member
Where it is made also dictates how much the person working on them is paid. The main reason to send MFG to China is Money. So if you get paid $10 per hour, would you do the same job and have the same attitude vs the guy making $50 to do the same work?
Where something is made certainly has a lot to do with quality, just not every product.
You missed the most important factor, in one Country that $10 could actually be far above average and give that individual alot of buying power, while in that other Country that $50 is below average.
Another angle here is that product may sell in the thousands at $500 retail, keeping that employee employed for a long time, while that same product will only sell a few at $2500.
So again, not a simple comparison.
Shadowfax
Active member
And some countries use Slave Labor so agreed, it is not simple.
Projectman
Member
I see @MichaelsMinute continues his habit of name calling and drama while adding little value to the forum.
Shadowfax
Active member
And your last Thread was of value?
Im sure theres far worse things happening in some countries than that. Those concerned should band together, move there and implement change.
still-one
Active member
I won’t argue that money is a major factor in determining where a product could be manufactured. If you are using hourly wages as the determining factor you are significantly oversimplifying the sourcing process. A couple of examples. If you want access to the Chinese market you are probably going to have to partner up with local supplier (a JV) and produce some of your product there. With that JV you are going to have to share your state of the art manufacturing processes.
Unless you are going to manufacture a commodity you have really need a relatively high labor content product to offset shipping costs. Products that weigh a lot or do not package well are not are not very viable for import. Two examples are automotive batteries which are too heavy and products where you have to import materials from Europe or the US before converting then reexporting them to the country where they will sold.
I am very conversant in this topic.
Shadowfax
Active member
I am not saying Tannoy uses Slave Labor, but it is a widespread issue in China. How can the quality of work from a slave be as good as a person getting paid?
Freespoke.com – Your new search engine.
Projectman
Member
Perhaps @MichaelsMinute just posts some of his rhetoric for attention
Projectman
Member
Perhaps it didn’t add value, but isn’t that the case with many opinions?
Shadowfax
Active member
And that is your opinion.
Opinions are the basis for conversation. If all we spoke were facts, there would not be much conversation.
CPP
Active member
Don't forget, we have a US avg of $7.25 a hr. And the migrants that are working in the US, they are actually called guest workers who temporarily live in the US through the federal H-2A program to work on farms, on an avg get $13+ a hr, or some get paid by the piece. Regarding work camps, from the National Center For Farm Worker Health, A study conducted in 2008 in North Carolina found that about 89% of the agricultural worker labor camps had more than one condition that violated the Migrant Housing Act (MHA) of North Carolina. [19] According to the same study, 78% of workers reported living in crowded conditions regardless whether the provided space complies with housing standards. Another study conducted in 2007 in the Coachella Valley of California concluded that 2% of those surveyed reported having living situations not meant for human habitation (such as the outdoors, vehicles, or inhabited converted garages). Some of these might as well be slave camps right here in the US. But hey we consume the food these migrants harvest, no big issue with that. But this has zip to do with audio.
Threads like this always go out the rails. Almost like it was intentional.
Please refer to Global findings | Walk Free for facts around Slave Labor. I would NOT even think to connect Tannoy with the morally criminal act of using slave labor to build and manufacture their loudspeakers & products. I am going to assume no one who is born and raised in a first world nation (most of us here) can actually comprehend the situations on which people are forced into slave labor. So bringing this up is something that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and I'm puzzled by how some of us are raising these things instead of focusing on Tannoy being disingenuous with their practices, facts, products, etc.
Getting back on top, calling Tannoy out is all fair in the court of public opinion. It's well within Michael's rights to call out on a public forum such as this. It may or may not be fact-based (which seems to be the back and forth conversation happening in this thread).
Tannoy's ownership changed to Music Tribe, which is a German company founded and chaired by Uli Behringer of the Behringer audio company. Where they choose to conduct manufacturing is very much within their right as a business and if they transition from Scotland to China, that's just the nature of business economics. This isn't dissimilar to how Sony moved their manufacturing of TVs and Playstations from Japan to China.
At some point, it will be economically more feasible to shift manufacturing to other countries like Vietnam and Thailand (Sony just shifted 90% of their camera & lens manufacturing to Thailand last year).
This actually says more about the economics of Tannoy than anything else. They seem to be selling more product globally where they need to gain economies of scale to generate a sustainable margin of profit. Tannoy has more than just the high-end products that we're discussing here, since they also serve the pro audio markets as well.
But let's leave the topic of slave labor, which I would argue none of us have any understanding about, out of this thread.
Getting back on top, calling Tannoy out is all fair in the court of public opinion. It's well within Michael's rights to call out on a public forum such as this. It may or may not be fact-based (which seems to be the back and forth conversation happening in this thread).
Tannoy's ownership changed to Music Tribe, which is a German company founded and chaired by Uli Behringer of the Behringer audio company. Where they choose to conduct manufacturing is very much within their right as a business and if they transition from Scotland to China, that's just the nature of business economics. This isn't dissimilar to how Sony moved their manufacturing of TVs and Playstations from Japan to China.
At some point, it will be economically more feasible to shift manufacturing to other countries like Vietnam and Thailand (Sony just shifted 90% of their camera & lens manufacturing to Thailand last year).
This actually says more about the economics of Tannoy than anything else. They seem to be selling more product globally where they need to gain economies of scale to generate a sustainable margin of profit. Tannoy has more than just the high-end products that we're discussing here, since they also serve the pro audio markets as well.
But let's leave the topic of slave labor, which I would argue none of us have any understanding about, out of this thread.
Tannoy speakers have been built by Diora - which is the biggest cabinet supplier in EU - for at least the last 15 years (maybe even more). They are build on the same floor as speakers from Gryphon, Marten Design, Elac, Dynaudio, Focal, Triangle, Piega, Burmester, Quadral, Canton, Fyne Audio and many more.
Diora is anything but a "garage" - it is a very modern factory with 150+ ppl employed, built in 2014 (the company itself has been making cabinets since 1977).
About the Company – Diora
I just happened to visit Diora today with one of the european hi-end speaker manufacturers (with products ranging from 10.000 EUR to 500.000 EUR), who is looking for a new cabinets supplier and have witnessed Tannoy cabinets beeing made there.
Here are some pictures I took today, mindfull of this discussion:
BTW - it is funny to see Tannoy and Fyne cabinets beeing made on the same floor, just a few feet away.