Axpona 2015 Pics
- Thread starter Mike
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Paul this may be true for Lampi style DSD, but it could perhaps be solved and have the same SQ via i2s, I dunno.
However, he has it working on the PCM engine, no problem. i think USB has more life in it that you think...the same i2s SSR tech is developed by Swenson, the same brain behind the Regen. The tinking is similar and new on how to contain packet induced noise. Its not that the packet noise is transferred, its that the incoming packet noise of the Transport and high impedance of many DAC USB interface designs, lower the signal integrity of the digital signal and INDUCES the USB receiver of the Dac to create its OWN packet noise which is passed on to the Dac chip. The trick going fwd is to clean up the incoming as much as possible AND to design the USB receiver (PHY) setup in Dacs to have low impedance and an optimized power distribution network (PDN) that will reduce/prevent the Dac's USB from propogating the packet noise chain. Phew...That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
I agree that there is an Ethernet shift...the Dart LHC-208 will be shipping this week hopefully, as I know a batch has been packed up already and waiting to go. that is a 200wpc integrated amp/Ethernet streamer transport and highrez Dac all rolled into one. I heard it in feb and will have another session end May (where I will lakely bring along the Big7 to compare...yeah Big fun...Heheheheh). the LHC-208 is super impressive and killed the Chord Qute EX with Hynes SR3 LPSU we tried the last time.I have heard that somewhere before.....Norman did you catch this?
I also know that Genelec has Ethernet multi-channel tech that they showed at CES and that was very impressive.
However, the rumours of the demise of USB are greatly exaggerated, as Ethernet itself propogates packet noise and in some cases is WORSE. Many of the mobos in the popular NAS(ty)s are very noisy, just like the mobo on some popular and expensive servers out there (dirty secret that will eventually get out). The beauty of a CAPs like server is that the mobo and components are HAND picked to be of approved quality for audio (better tolerances) and the OS is upgradeable to the latest (watch the Win10 space over the next few months --thank me later) and are eminently tweakable by the biggest geeks in computerdom, with far more resources than specialist audio companies.
Having said all this, we then have to look at the interfaces... Ethernet that is NOT i2s has packet noise issues. i2s as designed in the SSR has bespoke design that purports to treat this. The jury is still out that when USB is similarly treated, that it will be inferior...that is where the Regen and other upcoming tech from the same guys will come in. The whole PDN working theorem is VERY new and there ia alll to play for over the coming months. Early REGEN feedback has been unanimously good. Corning cable needs TQM, BUT the combo with regen is getting losts of thumbs up. Corning is not Toslink (which has excellent shielding/isolation but poor jitter control (timimg). Its a hybrid USB in, converted to optical for travel and then reconverted back to USB. Thus you have good RFI/power shielding, and then whatever package noise is created on reconversion to USB is dealt with by the Regen which is the last stage IMMEDIATELY before the Dac PHY receiver. The theory of the SSR is that i2s never needs to get converted, as its already in the native Dac chip language, BUT Lampi DSD is filter based and perhaps work better with another signal format, as there IS no Dac chip? Thus for Lampi DSD, there may need to be conversion from i2s to something else??? I have no clue there and I guess Lukasz will have to start doing his testing/research to say definitively?
OK, enough from me on this ...I HATE typing long epistles. Sorry for thr many typos.
- Thread Author
- #344
That's it Norman. Lukasz said "i2s only has three wires, I need 5 wires and usb has five." Lukasz explained that because there is no DAC chip, the Lampi is unique in its design and requires the five wires. I never asked about USB 3.0 which has 9 wires. But at the end of the day, as far as the Lampi design is concerned, all these other connections are compromises. He said to think of the way the Lampi handles DSD like water flowing down a stream. The three wires from i2s would result in loss and compromise, spillage over the edge of the creek if you will. The wider creek (5 wires) allows the water to flow perfectly with no loss.
Mike, that explanation sounds reasonable to me. Indeed, if Paul decides to go that route and gets USB and i2s on his Lampi, he will be able to tell us definitively. AL will likely upgrade to i2s later, if we can ever pull him away from his HeadDac. He is SO over the moon about the Headdac, that he may not care about anything else. With statements like it CLEARLY beats using the B7 with a Woo WA5 and that DSD now sounds even better and can stream natively as well from PC up to DSD 256.
I am now pining away for a 256 upgrade. This needs to happen...GROAN.
I am now pining away for a 256 upgrade. This needs to happen...GROAN.
CPP
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Bobolaclune
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+1 !!!!!!
True, based on my demo at Chez Bob, the image is very 3d and lots of it actually behind the speaker (like casting a wide net). The Wave 40 was less so, but more sucking you in. Hard to describe otherwise...
FlexibleAudio
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I always goof that up. I have an acquaintance named Bruce Swenson. Of, course I was referring to John and his big brain.
FlexibleAudio
Member
Yes I understand the impact of usb on the dac's PDN; that is the basis of my point. I2s has no such problems. The only reason to stay in usb and monkey with ways to negate it's inherent problems is that it is the most universal output from pc's and input for dac's mated to pc's (including the Lampi) and both are currently optimized for it. This is not about the need to use HQP to upsample which requires a pc and therefore usb. What I am saying is that imo pc's will be upsamping on the fly with i2s ouputs in the not too distant future including raw dsd over 3 wires; if not by Lukasz then by others.
FlexibleAudio
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I am no doubt going to get a lot of flack for this but the main purpose of my trip to Axpona was to spend as much time possible comparing the current sota digital to analog to make a final decision about my next step. I spent a ton of time in the two Lampi rooms and the two DCS rooms as well as the Kronos, AMG, Clear Audio, DS Audio and Doshi rooms. I wanted to prefer the Lampi for convenience. I would choose it's DSD over the Vivaldi. But I could not get there against the analog and frankly I am not sure I ever will.
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- #353
Paul - what were your thoughts on the MQA demo? I felt it was as close to R2R as I've ever heard.
Myles B. Astor
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The Dave Brubeck MQA Take Five demo was horrible. I have a 2nd Gen 15 ips tape given to me by a friend for my birthday and any similarity between the tape and MQA was purely coicidental. So bad I couldn't believe the source WAS the tape. The cymbals were hard as nails and may have been worse than 80s digital. The rest of the music spectrum was totally discontinuous. Where was the midrange? And the instruments were MIA. WTF? YMMV.. Totally a gimmick and it's all really about streaming and compacting data in the end if I read between the lines.
FlexibleAudio
Member
Myles, I must ask you to weigh in more directly. This wishy-washy stuff will not suffice.
Mike, I did not spend time there. I may have mistakenly prejudged the technology as too early stage and wanted to really commit my time to what I thought was proven sota in Lampi versus Vivaldi (versus analog). I hope I did not make a mistake.
- Thread Author
- #356
I thought the MQA was smooth, yet detailed and very transparent. Obviously I would have preferred to hear it on my own system, but I don't have any digital biases. I really do feel MQA is a major advancement for digital, and more specifically music reproduction in general.
Whether it catches on with the masses (as Meridian desires) remains to be seen. But what I heard was very impressive.
Myles, I will ask, did you actually hear MQA? The reason I ask is that the MQA files had to be specifically asked to be played. If you didn't ask, then they were spinning 24/192, 24/96 PCM to demonstrate the Meridian speakers and Meridian gear (and not MQA). The first time I went into the room on Friday, I sat and listened and thought, "this sucks, what is everyone talking about?" Then at dinner, the guys I was with told me, "no, no, you have to ask to hear the MQA files." I went back Saturday and the room was packed. I couldn't even get in the door. I went back Sunday and was able to spend an hour discussing, meeting and most importantly listening to the MQA files (they had only three to demo). The 1956 Frank Sinatra song was breathtakingly good.
Whether it catches on with the masses (as Meridian desires) remains to be seen. But what I heard was very impressive.
Myles, I will ask, did you actually hear MQA? The reason I ask is that the MQA files had to be specifically asked to be played. If you didn't ask, then they were spinning 24/192, 24/96 PCM to demonstrate the Meridian speakers and Meridian gear (and not MQA). The first time I went into the room on Friday, I sat and listened and thought, "this sucks, what is everyone talking about?" Then at dinner, the guys I was with told me, "no, no, you have to ask to hear the MQA files." I went back Saturday and the room was packed. I couldn't even get in the door. I went back Sunday and was able to spend an hour discussing, meeting and most importantly listening to the MQA files (they had only three to demo). The 1956 Frank Sinatra song was breathtakingly good.
Myles B. Astor
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As far as I know Mike. I'm pretty sure he said it was the MQA file.
If it wasn't, then it begs the question are they rigging the test?
- Thread Author
- #358
No. They were there as Meridian (not just for MQA). They were very proud of their speakers and preamp and their little thumb drive sized DAC...and...and....
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Myles B. Astor
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Mike I went into the Meridien room on Saturday and listened them talk about MQA and then the presenter said they were playing a MQA file. That's as much as I know. I took them at their word.
If not, then that again brings us to point two then.
If not, then that again brings us to point two then.
mep
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Well, if they only brought 3 MQA files, somebody should know if one of them was the Dave Brubeck Take Five. I wish I would have stopped by the Meridian room and heard the MQA demo to see if the reality lives up to the hype. When I read about all the things that MQA is supposed to do, it seems like they are promising the world. It reminds me of the old saying that if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. MQA is supposed to reach all the way back to the original A/D converter used in the recording studio and then MQA somehow tells your D/A converter about the A/D and your D/A converter somehow becomes the studio machine so you magically hear what the recording/mastering engineers heard when they made the recording. And all of this is going on in the data they have folded down because they are throwing high-rez data out of the digital window because you don't really need all of that resolution anyway. And most interesting is that they claim to be able to take a 24/192 file and 'improve' it by converting it to a lower resolution file and suddenly it will sound like the master tape.
Hey, I gotta run. Somebody just called me and said they were from Microsoft and they need to take over my computer and run a virus scan so I need to sign off and let them take over my computer.
Hey, I gotta run. Somebody just called me and said they were from Microsoft and they need to take over my computer and run a virus scan so I need to sign off and let them take over my computer.