Audiophiles - a bunch of hypocrites?

[BlueFox]

Hypocrites or not, but there currently is for sale on this site a pair of Magico S5s and a Berkeley Reference DAC. This is a good start to putting together a decent, yet (relatively) inexpensive system. Who needs $100k speakers, and $90k DACs?

 

[wisnon]

Ummm.....within the context of economics, I think you meant inelastic; or I don't get your point.

Correct, but I was speaking in "secular" terms. Elastic from a pricing PoV, meaning they sellers can stretch it to any imaginary number, "i"., ie the square root of -1.

 

[Glareskin]

If I was starting out again today, conservative wisdom would be telling me to research further into the future and to think outside of the multi-box squares. Clearly, we are moving into a digitally wireless world where unobtrusively thin is in.

Brands like Devialet and Kii Audio present compelling and innovative cost conscious "lifestyle" solution opportunities. They may not exactly equal or surpass the performance of conventional and esoteric analogue HiFi solutions yet but there is no discounting the functional density, flexibility and ease of deployment some of this new age gear is offering today.

I also think that high priced solid state electronics is not sustainable in a faster paced digital world.

IMO, analogue HiFi has reached a technical plateau. Will the current best of breed become vintage collectibles? I'm not sure anymore. Perhaps less of it will. Some of the stuff that can still be worked on and restored by hand will. High density electronics though will have a finite use by date as many PCBs constructed today will not be repairable. Many hands will be lost in future's past and vintage engineering craft will become art.

I often wonder what will become of all that expensive wire behind the big rigs of today?

To the end I am a gear keeper and not a gear swapper. Much of what I have purchased will be serviceable into the future. No doubt, I will continue to purchase selectively from time to time to augment already solid system(s) foundations.

Steve this is the best post of the thread! You've hit some nails right on the head. I agree with you that we will see the concepts changing (again) to more integration. I think the Kii speakers or Linn Exakt are good examples for that.
Also the sound quality level is so high for a lot of gear. I believe that you can now have the same sq for 5000 EUR that costed 100000 EUR in the 80's. In other words: entry budget systems are so good now!
Examples are Sonos, Auralic etcetera. Or here is another example. In the August edition of Stereoplay they have tested the 1490 EURo /pair costing Nubert NuVero 60 a few pages apart from the 8000 EUR /pair costing Focal Sopra no.1.
Yes the Sopra is better in some values like imaging. However the differences are not that big and the Nubert has better bass and can play louder. I think a lot of people will be happier with the Nubert.

This shows that we are reaching the technical plateau as you call it. Better quality will cost a lot!!

And new technologies in the digital domain as well as better use of DSP will take things to a higher level.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

This shows that we are reaching the technical plateau as you call it. Better quality will cost a lot!!

Maybe Hans, but, personally, the Focal looks a lot nicer (to me) and costs way more.
Questions to all:
Raise your hands if you listen blind at home, without seeing the equipment?
Raise your hands if you listen at home, sometimes with visitors, without knowing the cost?
Raise your hands if you listen at home, without knowing about every component in the system?
Raise your hands if you believe you are immune to bias and self deception like all humans (ok audiophiles, you can put your hands down now)?
Exactly.
It bears repeating: Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10 - CNET

Changes in the price of a product can influence neural computations associated with experienced pleasantness.
Contrary to the basic assumptions of economics, several studies have provided behavioral evidence that marketing actions can successfully affect experienced pleasantness by manipulating nonintrinsic attributes of goods.

The "intrinsic" quality of audio equipment being audio, aka, sound. So make no apologies if a $300k DAC "sounds" better to you and makes you happier. The fact is, there are factors to your perception and derived pleasure, far beyond "sound". Looks, price, street cred, etc. do matter. Ultimately, if honest with one self.
Of course, making ridiculous objective claims about audio jewelry is another matter entirely.

cheers,

AJ

 

[MDP]

Maybe Hans, but, personally, the Focal looks a lot nicer (to me) and costs way more.
Questions to all:
Raise your hands if you listen blind at home, without seeing the equipment?
Raise your hands if you listen at home, sometimes with visitors, without knowing the cost?
Raise your hands if you listen at home, without knowing about every component in the system?
Raise your hands if you believe you are immune to bias and self deception like all humans (ok audiophiles, you can put your hands down now)?
Exactly.
It bears repeating: Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10 - CNET
The "intrinsic" quality of audio equipment being audio, aka, sound. So make no apologies if a $300k DAC "sounds" better to you and makes you happier. The fact is, there are factors to your perception and derived pleasure, far beyond "sound". Looks, price, street cred, etc. do matter. Ultimately, if honest with one self.
Of course, making ridiculous objective claims about audio jewelry is another matter entirely.

cheers,

AJ

Aj, I get your point. But I've had a rare opportunity to demo a lot of gear in my own system because one of my best friends was also my audio dealer. And I am also lucky enough to afford a lot of the gear I compared. By your logic I would own the prettiest and most expensive stuff, but I'm one of the few that does measure a piece of gear by sound quality. My Classe CP 800 is a great example. I've compared it to many,much more expensive and prettier preamps. But I wasn't even tempted to spend more for sound that was comparable, or in some cases worse, just because it cost more. I'm just not going to pay more for audio jewelry.

But I also am not going to criticize those that do, after all, it's their choice to do what makes them happy.

By the way, my gear IS in an inclosed cabinet and I don't see it when I'm listening to music.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

By your logic I would own the prettiest and most expensive stuff, but I'm one of the few that does measure a piece of gear by sound quality. My Classe CP 800 is a great example.

Hi Mark,

No, by my logic (and the science backs that up), you own whatever you prefer, be that the most expensive stuff...or not, like the Classe. Same as everyone else, me included.
What I'm saying, is make no apologies for owning that $300k DAC, or a $300 one. As with a Patek vs Timex, the pleasure derived, goes far beyond intrinsic "time"...or "sound", etc.
Make no silly objective claims either. Then, there is no, nor can be, any conflict. Just preference.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Glareskin]

Maybe Hans, but, personally, the Focal looks a lot nicer (to me) and costs way more.
Questions to all:
Raise your hands if you

I know AJ. I am no better than the rest of us. I am fan of the Focal sound and the whole package would make me buy the Focal.

By the way, my gear IS in an inclosed cabinet and I don't see it when I'm listening to music.

Mark I don't like the mid and high if the speaker is enclosed in a cabinet.:lol:

 

[Steve]

Hans... I totally agree that we are at the cusp of a new generation of HiFi that will take performance to a new level. Advances in active digital technology, adaptive DSP etc. In essence intelligent loudspeakers that can communicate wirelessly with digital sources and can adapt themselves to suit room conditions and playback parameters.

I believe that in the near future, active digital technologies will be sonically leagues ahead of passively wired solutions. Certainly Linn are amongst a growing league who are pioneering these advances.

 

[wisnon]

Steve this is the best post of the thread! You've hit some nails right on the head. I agree with you that we will see the concepts changing (again) to more integration. I think the Kii speakers or Linn Exakt are good examples for that.
Also the sound quality level is so high for a lot of gear. I believe that you can now have the same sq for 5000 EUR that costed 100000 EUR in the 80's. In other words: entry budget systems are so good now!
Examples are Sonos, Auralic etcetera. Or here is another example. In the August edition of Stereoplay they have tested the 1490 EURo /pair costing Nubert NuVero 60 a few pages apart from the 8000 EUR /pair costing Focal Sopra no.1.
Yes the Sopra is better in some values like imaging. However the differences are not that big and the Nubert has better bass and can play louder. I think a lot of people will be happier with the Nubert.

This shows that we are reaching the technical plateau as you call it. Better quality will cost a lot!!

And new technologies in the digital domain as well as better use of DSP will take things to a higher level.

A lot of the bang for the buck comes from no more line losses from cables and X-over filters, perfect synergy/control with amp and drivers (think of each of these speakers being internally SAM-ed), inability to overdrive the speakers due to design specs, DRC programs to minimize room issues, controlled directivity of MR/HF, control of bass frequency waves, etc.

Emerald Physics has shown that even with mediocre components, if you have most of these elements in place, you can get a HUGE bang for the buck. Now when you use better componets, more updated software, superior computer modelling for design, one can only expect a stunning result and for much less money than a full out tradional separates system and much easier setup as well...darn near turn-key (or is that turn-kii?). In eitther case, you are GoldEN, or is that mund? LoL

 

[jdandy]

I'm still trying to figure out why it makes any difference to another what someone else likes, dislikes, gains pleasure from, sees value in or not. If we spent as much time focusing on our own core values, life experiences, and pleasures as we do sticking our noses into other people's business attempting to advise them, I think we would all be far more at peace in our own skin.

 

[Lefisc]

"I'm still trying to figure out why it makes any difference to another what someone else likes, dislikes, gains pleasure from, sees value in or not. If we spent as much time focusing on our own core values, life experiences, and pleasures as we do sticking our noses into other people's business attempting to advise them, I think we would all be far more at peace in our own skin."

Dan, I understand and appreciate your point. But I feel that, for the most part, we are here to share, not to determine others tastes. We help each other reach certain goals.

It is more difficult for me these days to here certain products because there are less stores in my neighborhood than they there used to be and even the stores have less samples. So I am curious what informed people have to say. Also, I am NOT familiar with every brand.

Also it’s fun to share our experiences without being judgmental. I came to this site when someone asked me about my amps and speakers. I have asked and gotten great answers (and reviews) about equipment I attended on buying. Sharing, when welcomed, is not intrusive.

 

[Steve]

If your system can offer your dog believable and proactive environmental enrichment, then you have the right setup not only to get the best out of your preferred genres but also for them to watch and listen to DOGTV !!! True.
:lookatthat:

 

[the professor]

There is certainly a lot of logic to this. It does seem like the majority of preamps coming out have a built in DAC these days.

Although, amplified speakers have been around for DECADES and it never really caught on as the norm. Even tho there are soooooo many reasons that they are better. So not sure people will go even further and go with DACs and amps in the speakers.

Hans... I totally agree that we are at the cusp of a new generation of HiFi that will take performance to a new level. Advances in active digital technology, adaptive DSP etc. In essence intelligent loudspeakers that can communicate wirelessly with digital sources and can adapt themselves to suit room conditions and playback parameters.

I believe that in the near future, active digital technologies will be sonically leagues ahead of passively wired solutions. Certainly Linn are amongst a growing league who are pioneering these advances.

 

[laynesaddiction]

I am not above the fray, but even with all my stuff I don't consider myself an audiophile. In fact I might be out of place with them. I really do consider myself a music lover. I don't go over to friends houses to listen to their new speakers. I don't want to listen to equipment I want to listen to music and performances. I know how much money I have and I have always judged equipment by how musical and soundS. Sometimes that sound comes at a high price and sometimes it comes at a low price. But I also try to be satisfied with what I have. Others always seem to be looking for something better.


Finally, and I really don't mean to sound critical in anyway but some people listen to the price tag and not to the component they are buying. That is, the more expensive unit to them always sound better.

Barry,

You are spot on imho with your philosophy on the musicality and performance being paramount and the equipment being a means to that end. Of course you can get closer to whatever your sonic nirvana is by carefully organizing your system with equipment that is better engineered (most of the time this also comes at a high cost, but not always); but the end game to me is always the music. My take is that (within your budget of course) you should always go with your ears and what stirs the passion inside of you and don't feel ashamed if it cost $200 or $20,000 (again within your budget), whether a local hifi rag or high-end community feels your piece is "approved" or not, or if the brand name is not currently the media's darling.

I stopped going to almost all of the local audiophile club events since what was supposed to be a pleasant evening listening to a variety of music, tended to end up being a pissing contest about the equipment. Again, I know the equipment is an end to the means, but I am there to listen to and enjoy music first and foremost; not spend 90% of the time listening to people bitch and moan about a millimeter less soundstage depth in this system vs. their own. Happily there is at least one event that is run every month that focuses on the music.


A short story that I still shake my head over that if you replace "listen to the brand name" instead of "listen to the price tag" in your text above.

In the mid 80s I was in a stereo shop and walked into a room where a guy listening to cassette decks asked me my opinion on a couple of decks he was listening to. I told him I could give my opinion, but ultimately his is the only one that mattered. What it boiled down to was he was stuck on the fact that he (in his words" greatly liked the sound of the "No Name" deck over the Nakamichi). He said something similar to, "I can go with "No Name" for X hundred dollars less and I much prefer its sound, but damn the other one is a Nak". When I was leaving, he was getting ready to purchase his deck and I asked which one he pickled. Of course he picked the Nakamichi stating he just had to pick it because "It was a Nak" even though it didn't sound as good to him. Sigh.

BTW: My opinion was the Nakamichi sounded better, so I am not sure what that means. ;-)

 

[CDLehner]

I'm still trying to figure out why it makes any difference to another what someone else likes, dislikes, gains pleasure from, sees value in or not. If we spent as much time focusing on our own core values, life experiences, and pleasures as we do sticking our noses into other people's business attempting to advise them, I think we would all be far more at peace in our own skin.

Not that it makes it "right", or defensible; but I think scrutiny, judgment, and one-upmanship...are parts of most hobbies.

 

[jdandy]

"I'm still trying to figure out why it makes any difference to another what someone else likes, dislikes, gains pleasure from, sees value in or not. If we spent as much time focusing on our own core values, life experiences, and pleasures as we do sticking our noses into other people's business attempting to advise them, I think we would all be far more at peace in our own skin."

Dan, I understand and appreciate your point. But I feel that, for the most part, we are here to share, not to determine others tastes. We help each other reach certain goals.

It is more difficult for me these days to here certain products because there are less stores in my neighborhood than they there used to be and even the stores have less samples. So I am curious what informed people have to say. Also, I am NOT familiar with every brand.

Also it’s fun to share our experiences without being judgmental. I came to this site when someone asked me about my amps and speakers. I have asked and gotten great answers (and reviews) about equipment I attended on buying. Sharing, when welcomed, is not intrusive.

Barry.......Sharing your personal experiences with like minded people is the backbone of online forums. Seeking advice and receiving it is also a valuable aspect of online forums. Simply enjoying the comradery of friends makes online forums a fun gathering place to hang out. Even if one never makes a post, online forums can be great entertainment just to read. I support all of those activities.

The point I was hoping to make is how conversations occasionally turn toward analyzing someone's need for something better, more expensive, more prestigious, more powerful, or a desire to remain at the leading edge of technology. Some people want to pick apart the idea that those who wish to expand their sound systems in these manners are either wasting money, falling victim to self delusion, seeking a performance level that can be achieved for far less cost, or are just being egotistical and want the bragging rights of owning an outrageous system, ect. This type of conversation tends to skew in the direction that those who wish to embrace the best attainable are somehow either foolish, uninformed, delusional, or all of the above. It doesn't get said in such blatant terms but the covert consensus of some posters eludes to those notions as somehow being a fact. I am simply saying that we should live and let live without discounting someone else's choices because they differ from yours. If we make the best choices for ourselves, we should be able to find pleasure in those choices and we should also be happy for the choices others make as well. It really is none of our business what someone else chooses to do providing it does not infringe on our lives and happiness. Assuming another person is wasting money or has no need, or can't be getting their money's worth isn't our concern. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Correct, but I was speaking in "secular" terms. Elastic from a pricing PoV, meaning they sellers can stretch it to any imaginary number, "i"., ie the square root of -1.

Geez..... just google price elasticity for goodness sake. Audio gear is a perfect example of price inelasticity. That is what this whole thread is about.