Audiophiles - a bunch of hypocrites?

Back to the discussion at hand...:)

The point I was trying to make is that there is all kinds of crazy high priced stuff around us. $100,000 speaker cables, $90,000 DAC's, etc. If you're in a position and you want to buy a ah..hem...a $45,000 phonostage, have at it!

But there are giant killers out there. Little hidden gems and THOSE are the products that are not as easy to find, but when you do, oh my....such a reward. You feel like you've stolen the crown jewels.

More modestly priced products also gives us a much better evaluation point. What I mean is that your expectations for a $50,000 DAC is off the charts higher than say a $5,000 DAC or even a $1000 one.

Ultimately, it comes down to a question of value and value for each person is completely different. One person buying a $5,000 DAC (who can afford a $50,000 DAC), might have much lower expectations on performance than the person scrimping and saving like crazy and FINALLY has enough to buy that $5,000 DAC. His expectations might be over the moon given his efforts to save. It's all based on each individuals perspective.

However, that doesn't mean that we can't find common ground. I think we can all agree that when a phonostage like the Manley Chinook or Zesto Andros Phonostage is knocking off much higher products, they are both something to be admired. Ditto for amps, speakers, cables, etc.

So fret not, there are incredibly good products out there at no so crazy prices which ultimately, at the end of the day, bring you so much listening pleasure and enjoyment and frankly, isn't that what it's all about in the first place?
 
How about a Giant Killers Forum?

Years ago when I purchased my Odyssey Stratos, it was deemed a GK. Is it really, I don't know because I have never had a shoot out against much higher priced amps, but in the $1000 range, I think it may have been near the top of the heap.

When going head to head with my Counterpoint NPS-400, you can clearly hear the refinement in the latter, but it's a whole different animal of amps being hybrid and not full SS.

The old Marantz 67-SE CDP was also one of the better players out there in a lower end range with clear sound improvements over similar cost players of that era.
 
Shadowfax said:
How about a Giant Killers Forum?

Years ago when I purchased my Odyssey Stratos, it was deemed a GK. Is it really, I don't know because I have never had a shoot out against much higher priced amps, but in the $1000 range, I think it may have been near the top of the heap.

When going head to head with my Counterpoint NPS-400, you can clearly hear the refinement in the latter, but it's a whole different animal of amps being hybrid and not full SS.

The old Marantz 67-SE CDP was also one of the better players out there in a lower end range with clear sound improvements over similar cost players of that era.
Click to expand...

How about a Giant Killers Forum? interesting indeed.
 
If I was starting out again today, conservative wisdom would be telling me to research further into the future and to think outside of the multi-box squares. Clearly, we are moving into a digitally wireless world where unobtrusively thin is in.

Brands like Devialet and Kii Audio present compelling and innovative cost conscious "lifestyle" solution opportunities. They may not exactly equal or surpass the performance of conventional and esoteric analogue HiFi solutions yet but there is no discounting the functional density, flexibility and ease of deployment some of this new age gear is offering today.

I also think that high priced solid state electronics is not sustainable in a faster paced digital world.

IMO, analogue HiFi has reached a technical plateau. Will the current best of breed become vintage collectibles? I'm not sure anymore. Perhaps less of it will. Some of the stuff that can still be worked on and restored by hand will. High density electronics though will have a finite use by date as many PCBs constructed today will not be repairable. Many hands will be lost in future's past and vintage engineering craft will become art.

I often wonder what will become of all that expensive wire behind the big rigs of today?

To the end I am a gear keeper and not a gear swapper. Much of what I have purchased will be serviceable into the future. No doubt, I will continue to purchase selectively from time to time to augment already solid system(s) foundations.
 
wisnon said:
Well when you have an industry sub-sector with absolutely no economies of scale, price becomes, welll...extremely elastic. Basically they are selling functional sculptures.
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Norman.......You touched on something I have often thought about, the additional cost of exotic component enclosures. Many high-end component cases are becoming more complex and esoteric with each new entry. An example might be the D'Agostino power amp and preamp. The dissimilar materials, millwork, specially designed meters and meter/volume control ring, sophisticated power supply bases, plus intricate assembly and specialized protection necessary through final delivery all add up. I used D'Agostino's components as an example but Dan's are not nearly as exotic and complicated enclosures as several other audio companies. How much more cost effective would these components be without the over the top enclosures? Creating audio sculptures is expensive.


press-2-jpg.14914




dagostino.jpg



 
Dan.... I would concur that many hands will be lost in future's past and vintage engineering craft will become art.

That is if it has restorative potential....
 
You are absolutely right.

Case in point - I buy art and it doesn't sound very good at all.

But to your point. I do wish more manufacturers would sell the same "internal" product at different levels of cases. Lumin I believe does this with their A1 and T1. I'm sure others do also, but it sure would be nice if even more did.




Double-D said:
Norman.......You touched on something I have often thought about, the additional cost of exotic component enclosures. Many high-end component cases are becoming more complex and esoteric with each new entry. An example might be the D'Agostino power amp and preamp. The dissimilar materials, millwork, specially designed meters and meter/volume control ring, sophisticated power supply bases, plus intricate assembly and specialized protection necessary through final delivery all add up. I used D'Agostino's components as an example but Dan's are not nearly as exotic and complicated enclosures as several other audio companies. How much more cost effective would these components be without the over the top enclosures? Creating audio sculptures is expensive.


press-2-jpg.14914




dagostino.jpg



Click to expand...
 
jaxwired said:
Not to sound above the frey (and I'm sure I am guilty of some cost bias myself), but I've always thought a world class system could be assembled under $30k for EVERYTHING. And I'm not talking diminishing returns here. I'm talking full on world class. I've never believed that $30k preamps or $60k amps had anything to offer over $8k preamps and $8k amps. I'm not even sure if a $30k preamp is more likely to sound better than an $8k preamp. What I'm saying is I believe that sound quality and cost generally correlate in a linear fashion until you get above a certain threshold (say $10k) and then I think the correlation completely breaks down. I think it's even more true with speakers given how many behemoth speakers I've hear at shows that don't sound so great.
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I disagree that a "World Class Sound System" can be put together for $30k. I will agree that a excellent system can be put together for that price. I agree that that $30k system could fulfill most everyones SQ needs. For a true world class system you are going to pay significantly more for what for many would see as small improvements in SQ.

Few of us have rooms that can take full advantage of the better gear available to us at some ridiculous prices. Why would someone purchase huge speakers that won't work in their 16'x12' room then overpower it with Boulder's big amps. Your suggested $30k system probably would sound better. Now put those big speakers and amps in a purpose built room and now you will hear the differences. I am not trying to suggest that the price difference is justifiable save for the fortunate few.
 
"It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no, no
It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no"
 
Pricing has always been an issue , this is nothing new, any product competitive against mega buck stuff will not sell well if it's not priced accordingly, the worst place to be in is the middle, no mans land so to speak.



Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Pricing has always been an issue , this is nothing new, any product competitive against mega buck stuff will not sell well if it's not priced accordingly, the worst place to be in is the middle, no mans land so to speak.

Regards
Click to expand...

I think Aurenders strategy is a winner. Wanna pay $2500, no problem. Wanna pay $8000, we gotcha covered. Need the best, meet our $18,000 server.
 
wisnon said:
Well when you have an industry sub-sector with absolutely no economies of scale, price becomes, welll...extremely elastic. Basically they are selling functional sculptures.
Click to expand...

Ummm.....within the context of economics, I think you meant inelastic; or I don't get your point.
 
Mike said:
Back to the discussion at hand...:)

The point I was trying to make is that there is all kinds of crazy high priced stuff around us. $100,000 speaker cables, $90,000 DAC's, etc. If you're in a position and you want to buy a ah..hem...a $45,000 phonostage, have at it!

But there are giant killers out there. Little hidden gems and THOSE are the products that are not as easy to find, but when you do, oh my....such a reward. You feel like you've stolen the crown jewels.

More modestly priced products also gives us a much better evaluation point. What I mean is that your expectations for a $50,000 DAC is off the charts higher than say a $5,000 DAC or even a $1000 one.

Ultimately, it comes down to a question of value and value for each person is completely different. One person buying a $5,000 DAC (who can afford a $50,000 DAC), might have much lower expectations on performance than the person scrimping and saving like crazy and FINALLY has enough to buy that $5,000 DAC. His expectations might be over the moon given his efforts to save. It's all based on each individuals perspective.

However, that doesn't mean that we can't find common ground. I think we can all agree that when a phonostage like the Manley Chinook or Zesto Andros Phonostage is knocking off much higher products, they are both something to be admired. Ditto for amps, speakers, cables, etc.

So fret not, there are incredibly good products out there at no so crazy prices which ultimately, at the end of the day, bring you so much listening pleasure and enjoyment and frankly, isn't that what it's all about in the first place?
Click to expand...


A lot of good stuff in this post. Its tough to be judgmental up market or down; its all very personal. (Through the Rodgers phono stage in there too.)
 
jaxwired said:
I think Aurenders strategy is a winner. Wanna pay $2500, no problem. Wanna pay $8000, we gotcha covered. Need the best, meet our $18,000 server.
Click to expand...

Actually I think if you make an effort you can pay $20,000 for the Aurender W20 instead of $18,000 and then it will sound much, much better.
 
I am not above the fray, but even with all my stuff I don't consider myself an audiophile. In fact I might be out of place with them. I really do consider myself a music lover. I don't go over to friends houses to listen to their new speakers. I don't want to listen to equipment I want to listen to music and performances. I know how much money I have and I have always judged equipment by how musical and soundS. Sometimes that sound comes at a high price and sometimes it comes at a low price. But I also try to be satisfied with what I have. Others always seem to be looking for something better.

Finally, and I really don't mean to sound critical in anyway but some people listen to the price tag and not to the component they are buying. That is, the more expensive unit to them always sound better.
 
Hi everyone I have enjoyed reading this thread one thing I wanted to mention everyone knows the history of 2 channel stereo and how we had some very good Audio company's from the 60's through too today and how the technology of each component is not that much different for Hi End then the Best from the past, so why is the mark up so high on the cost if most of the engineering has already been done by the best for 2 channel audio Thanks Tim

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 
Did anyone from here snatch that Classe CP-800 on Audiogon after reading what Mike said? I was thinking to grab it yesterday to play around with it, but it's gone today. Very curious to compare with the XP-20.
 
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