Not really saying $30k preamps are a sham but what I am saying is that at some point money simply can no longer by small improvements in sound quality. For example, do you think that a million dollar preamp is even a micron better than a $200k preamp? I'd say hell no, state of the art is state of the art and more money cannot make it any better. And i do think $10k can buy a state of the art preamp. Any differences between a superb $10k preamp and a superb $30k preamp I'd chalk up to designer approach and buyer preference and not clear sound quality improvements.
Audiophiles - a bunch of hypocrites?
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Not really saying $30k preamps are a sham but what I am saying is that at some point money simply can no longer by small improvements in sound quality. For example, do you think that a million dollar preamp is even a micron better than a $200k preamp? I'd say hell no, state of the art is state of the art and more money cannot make it any better. And i do think $10k can buy a state of the art preamp. Any differences between a superb $10k preamp and a superb $30k preamp I'd chalk up to designer approach and buyer preference and not clear sound quality improvements.
Yeah, I guess you're right. No offense.
But here's the thing, while I do think that at some point money no longer buys sound quality improvements, it does buy gorgeous build quality. There is no question that most $30k preamps are stunning compared to the plainer offerings in the $8k range. Also, I'm not saying that preamps don't all sound different, they surely do. So it's not like $30k on a preamp can't be justified if the buyer enjoys that particular preamp the most.
And the other thing to note is, I could be completely wrong. Just ask my wife.
If you agree with the above point but you disagree with my previous assertions, than we don't fundamentally disagree. We just disagree on the price of state of art. Maybe it's not $10k. Maybe it's $40k. But I know damn well there's products selling above that line wherever that line is.
Magicos MRack sells for $40k. I'd say state of the art in rack technology falls somewhat below that price point.
FlexibleAudio
Member
Yeah, I guess you're right. No offense.
But here's the thing, while I do think that at some point money no longer buys sound quality improvements, it does buy gorgeous build quality. There is no question that most $30k preamps are stunning compared to the plainer offerings in the $8k range. Also, I'm not saying that preamps don't all sound different, they surely do. So it's not like $30k on a preamp can't be justified if the buyer enjoys that particular preamp the most.
And the other thing to note is, I could be completely wrong. Just ask my wife.
No Jax, I like your posts and do NOT take offense at all. I generally think your comment is correct, but I might change the slope on the curve a bit. There is no question our hobby has huge diminishing returns but the slope may stay positive on the line that correlates price and performance for a little bit beyond the $8000 mark. Also, I think your point that people pay a lot for "different" as opposed to "better" is an excellent point but that becomes highly subjective and even a semantical argument at some point.
i think you're right. If I could start this thread over, I'd pick a higher number than $8k. But now I'm stuck with it so I have to defend it to the end.
FlexibleAudio
Member
As a follow on, I also totally agree that some lower priced gear smokes some of the nonsense high priced stuff. There is a general correlation to price and performance but exceptions to this rule are abundant. That is the challenge for us all at any price point; to do our best to seek value based on our personal sound preferences, but also what other subjective variables ultimately light our fire.
Mike -
Interesting thread. There is a ton of gear that one can buy for a reasonable amount of money and have a wonderful musical experience. Some brands have already been mentioned here so I won't repeat them again.
Having spent the last 34+ years of my career in technology, I find it very difficult to understand some of the pricing we see with DACs and other audio equipment these days. But, hey, if people buy them, why not?
Yes, one can get a wonderfully sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. It doesn't take five or six figures to enjoy the music.
Interesting thread. There is a ton of gear that one can buy for a reasonable amount of money and have a wonderful musical experience. Some brands have already been mentioned here so I won't repeat them again.
Having spent the last 34+ years of my career in technology, I find it very difficult to understand some of the pricing we see with DACs and other audio equipment these days. But, hey, if people buy them, why not?
Yes, one can get a wonderfully sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. It doesn't take five or six figures to enjoy the music.
LoLi think you're right. If I could start this thread over, I'd pick a higher number than $8k. But now I'm stuck with it so I have to defend it to the end.
Too funny!
Well when you have an industry sub-sector with absolutely no economies of scale, price becomes, welll...extremely elastic. Basically they are selling functional sculptures.
The no. 1 difference between a pair of (well designed) $2000 speakers and a a pair of $20000 ones is:
the look.
The weight is no.2.
The sound itself most often doesn't make to top 10.
and it has to smell good too... Like an expensive new car...
CDLehner
New member
See, I agree with this a LOT; which is another reason I don't really go to shows.
We all know what the established brands are; and they've kind of established what you can expect to pay for them, "justified" or not.
When I read these show reviews...mostly what I see is Cybernetic Sounds Phantom IV speakers; $100,00! OK...who the hell is Cybernetic Sounds, and why is their speaker worth $100k? It's not...it's priced at $100k; what's that based on...cost of manufacturing? Please
It's probably a) it took them a year to design the "prototype", and b) they're projecting to sell maybe 5 pair in the coming year...and they need to keep the lights on. The best they can hope for...is some hi-fi pub, mentions it and says it "sounds good"; and then someone picks up on that, and some buzz gets going...and it becomes boutique, and in-the-know.
Now...is it a bad speaker? I sure as hell hope not! But...is it worth 10x more than a $10k Dynaudio; or sound 10x better...or even really sound "better" at all? Or is it just different?
CPP
Active member
Explain,
Here at the GVA car show you see many one-off types of supercars for silly money. Some are based on far cheaper platforms (like a Vette), but souped up and/or given a different enough skin to justify 4x the price.
You can sell such a car in the Gulf States if you guarantee a 2 year exclusivity on a particular colour, for example.
You can sell such a car in the Gulf States if you guarantee a 2 year exclusivity on a particular colour, for example.
CPP
Active member
I follow you now. I see cars like the Gumpert Apollo the Pagani Zonda (AMG Mercedes engine) and Zenvo ST1 to name a few. Lots of money for performance but with limited production and it appears only for those that can afford it.
CDLehner
New member
Yeah, but I think that's a little different even. And I'm no car guy; but if you take a "stock" platform, and "soup it up". Isn't that usually upgraded suspension, customizing the engine for (much) better performance; lighter body parts, etc, etc.? I mean, that does have some value (even if your point is, the value outweighs the work...because the cache is in it being one-of-a-kind).
I'm talking about 6-figure speakers...from companies I've never heard of; and the only thing I can see, that "justifies" the price...is they're using Brazilian Balboa from the Rainforest.
Well a) who the hell asked them to, and b) does it even make a difference...or just drive the price up? But I guess that does tie into your point; for the uber-wealthy...maybe it's partly, just about having something the other guy doesn't
Shadowfax
Well-known member
Glareskin
New member
Good that the Swiss people own plenty of silly money
