Audiophile fight

Didn't know he was self-taught. In any case I have owned a bunch of PS Audio products over the years, going back to my Elite+ integrated from 1984, which still works and sounds great. Paul has always delivered good stuff at a very fair price IMO.
 
Audiophobiac said:
The debate won't happen. If it came to it Paul would refuse and Ethan would chicken out. I don't buy into either one of them. (Real Traps is also a joke, dealt with them before and in my opinion they don't know what they are doing except overselling inappropriate room treatment). I know who these guys are, but I'm not into that audiophile stuff or anything. I don't buy into any of these guys or the Stereophiles, etc. I just listen to music, period, end of story. All that matters to me is "does it function correctly and does it sound good to me"?
I do for myself, my own academic research and make my own decisions because at the end of the day since I am the only one listening to my system, my opinion is the only one that matters. It is really the same for everyone. Your system, your choices, your music, your space, your opinion. If you are happy with the sound of your system or you get enjoyment out of it, then why fight?
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In principal I agree with you, so then why even participate on an audio forum ?
 
Mikado463 said:
In principal I agree with you, so then why even participate on an audio forum ?
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Well... theres the rub see, it's called a hobby, which means enthusiasts, which mean people who like to share with their like minded...., but, some come to be protagonists...., some even come to talk & share......, hell.., some, god help their souls, may even come to learn......
May the knowledgeable share & be fair....
 
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Where I come from we call self-taught engineers technicians. It's not a slam. But would you want a self-taught engineer designing bridges or a nuclear plant? Didn't think so.

Music is art. Audio is engineering. People who deeply understand both can make magic happen. They usually don't have time to engage in meaningless internet rants.
 
I found the concept of the Null Test very interesting personally. If I was hellbent on trying to prove to the audiophile world that cables make no difference, (a very futile task) I would have taken it much further. I'm not biased one way or the other by the way, show me proof either way that is logical and I will be a believer. I've been up and down the cable game myself. From being a skeptic to finding nirvana among the very expensive and well known brands. I have settled on the "golden middle". This way I can't go wrong either way! ;)

What I would have attempted to do:

1. Use a soundproof room so no external noise can affect the outcome.
2. Use a high quality microphone and an analyzer
3. Record and analyze two signals/sweeps. One from generic but well made and shielded cables and one from Uber cable of choice, the more expensive the better, from a setup system with components and speakers of choice! This way the whole system is plumbed with cables from start to finish leaving little room for variables.
4. Flip the phase of one of them, compare them in the digital domain and see what shakes out!

By the way, I just got banned from the "other" forum for saying this exact same thing! Imagine that....
 
W9TR said:
Where I come from we call self-taught engineers technicians. It's not a slam. But would you want a self-taught engineer designing bridges or a nuclear plant? Didn't think so.

Music is art. Audio is engineering. People who deeply understand both can make magic happen. They usually don't have time to engage in meaningless internet rants.
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I have to agree. Engineering is a profession and you need a qualification to call yourself an engineer. Period. It doesn't mean you are not competent but don't use the term. Many technicians also need qualifications.
 
TheOctopus said:
I found the concept of the Null Test very interesting personally. If I was hellbent on trying to prove to the audiophile world that cables make no difference, (a very futile task) I would have taken it much further. I'm not biased one way or the other by the way, show me proof either way that is logical and I will be a believer. I've been up and down the cable game myself. From being a skeptic to finding nirvana among the very expensive and well known brands. I have settled on the "golden middle". This way I can't go wrong either way! ;)

What I would have attempted to do:

1. Use a soundproof room so no external noise can affect the outcome.
2. Use a high quality microphone and an analyzer
3. Record and analyze two signals/sweeps. One from generic but well made and shielded cables and one from Uber cable of choice, the more expensive the better, from a setup system with components and speakers of choice! This way the whole system is plumbed with cables from start to finish leaving little room for variables.
4. Flip the phase of one of them, compare them in the digital domain and see what shakes out!

By the way, I just got banned from the "other" forum for saying this exact same thing! Imagine that....
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Hi Serge! I was wondering what happened to you.

Greg
 
W9TR said:
Where I come from we call self-taught engineers technicians. It's not a slam. But would you want a self-taught engineer designing bridges or a nuclear plant? Didn't think so.

Music is art. Audio is engineering. People who deeply understand both can make magic happen. They usually don't have time to engage in meaningless internet rants.
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Yep!
 
A few years ago I got into it with Ethan, probably on What's Best. He maintained that power cords made no difference (on YT, also on that thread). I asked him if he had measurements to back up his claim. He didn't. OTOH I did- I measure what the power cord does to the performance of an amplifier and its pretty easy to see. Then I measure what sort of voltage drop and waveforms are present from one end the cable to the other. Its simple- not voodoo, nor is it rocket science... IMO he seemed a bit unhinged. Anyone claiming to be an objectivist and then unable to back up his claims has pretty well debunked themselves. IMO he's not to be taken seriously.
 
atmasphere said:
A few years ago I got into it with Ethan, probably on What's Best. He maintained that power cords made no difference (on YT, also on that thread). I asked him if he had measurements to back up his claim. He didn't. OTOH I did- I measure what the power cord does to the performance of an amplifier and its pretty easy to see. Then I measure what sort of voltage drop and waveforms are present from one end the cable to the other. Its simple- not voodoo, nor is it rocket science... IMO he seemed a bit unhinged. Anyone claiming to be an objectivist and then unable to back up his claims has pretty well debunked themselves. IMO he's not to be taken seriously.
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The only person that takes Ethan seriously is Ethan. JA took apart Ethan’s claim to be “a man of science.”
 
Every time I this thread “Audiophile Fight” pop up, I keep thinking it will link back to another forum where the guys with no system know everything.

But yes, Ethan is interesting to say the least.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
morning! Having played in orchestras, I can attest that an "A" played on a clarinet (one reed), an oboe (double reed), a flute, piano, violin, etc sounds different. After a bit, you can listen to a recording and easily tell if it is an oboe or clarinet concerto!

I also believe that NOW, we likely cannot measure EVERYTHING about an amp, or the sound coming from a speaker.I agree with Paul McGowan. In similar fashion the FBI kept envelopes from old old cases, in case a NEW technology came up. well, it did- now they can get DNA from some envelopes, not just fingerprints.
In my opinion, the sound from 2 instruments will have different harmonics, and more or less "air", think of a flute as also having the sound of rushing air, attack times, vibrating wood or metal, etc.

As far as believability, I am pretty inclined to believe Paul McGowan, who is not afraid to say "I don't know" and "buy this speaker from this OTHER maker". i really believe Nelson Pass DOES understand a LOT about electronics, and is not afraid to try something new! Although I really cannot believe it, but getting the Audioquest Niagara 1000 from Mike Bovaird had an IMMEDIATE effect on sound stage. quite noticeable! I cannot for the life of me understand it, BUT I BELEIVE IT! food for thought! Listen for yourself, and believe what you hear.

Bob
 
AJ Soundfield said:
So microphones can't capture what microphones captured.
Cool, interesting view.
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The microphone cannot detect things like direction of instruments, only your ears can detect time and space and the human ear/brain combination has much more control at detecting time constants. Unlike a microphone, the human ear cannot hear all frequencies at the same level. Typically, the ear has a much more difficult time hearing (clearly) low frequencies, than say midrange frequencies.

Using a microphone to determine what the ear will like is like only using a roadmap to determine the family vacation. The brain/ear combination is much more complex in not only space and time, but in it’s perception of frequencies.

That’s why in designing equipment, both measurements and long listening tests are required.

If something measures good, but sounds bad, it is bad.
 
Mike said:
The microphone cannot detect things like direction of instruments
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Sure they can, otherwise you wouldn't hear the "direction of instruments" playing back what the microphones captured. This is a very fundamental part of "stereo" that stereophiles seem to know little about.
The fact is, microphones captured all soundwaves you heard in a recording, unless it's post processed, added distortions, electronic effects, etc,etc.
Similarly, microphones can capture soundwaves reproduced by your speakers, with those added distortions/effects/etc.
It's that simple. Now, humans interpreting what is what is another story.
But that doesn't mean captured, then reproduced soundwaves can't be measured, as always claimed. Nor does it mean that it must be the soundwaves that need to be wild goose chased, rather than measuring the person making the claim, which is not an electro-acoustic measurement at all.
Mike said:
That’s why in designing equipment, both measurements and long listening tests are required.
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For some. But that isn't evidence for the "unmeasurable" either, just a means and method.
Mike said:
If something measures good, but sounds bad, it is bad.
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According to whom? That sounds absolute, rather than anything subjective.
No examples of that exist, other than old tropes about Crown amps or something equally silly. There are overwhelming examples of the exact opposite, poor measuring sounds "bad" to those who trust ears/just listen. Zero examples of the opposite.
That fact is, soundwaves can be measured, humans reacting to light/sound/memory/belief/etc/etc....not so much.
Two different things entirely, no need for them to be conflated, or in conflict.

cheers,

AJ
 
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