Are they going to destroy audio?

MichaelsMinute said:
I really think you need to focus on your back order and spend less time diverting this thread. I bet you could get those back orders built in time for Christmas if you spent all the time building you are spending here diverting. I'm still waiting for you to call out directly the person I mentioned.

I can't be any more clear than what I've already posted that you've chosen to ignore.
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Perhaps you can point me to this person? I've not chosen to ignore anyone or any comment. I don't seem to find anyone that mentioned that Luxman stopped making class A amplifiers (although a particular class A model did get discontinued, but it seems to have been replaced by a newer version) or that there was a legal limit being imposed on power draw of any amplifier. You did mention reading about that on another website but so far have yet to say what site. FWIW, not everything you read on the web is true. This is an example.

No-one is coming after manufacturers of class A amplifiers. Tubes are at risk due to the war, but also because class D amps are making a big showing in the musical instrument world. For example we recently sent a prototype to Ron Carter, a well-known jazz bass player. He already runs a class D instrument amplifier when he does shows. He liked our amp, so there's that. Guitar players get their sound from effects pedals these days rather than relying on tube amps for that. The weight is a big influence there when you have to move into a venue and out again at 3:AM. I mention this because if you don't know, its the guitar amp market that has kept vacuum tube plants operating for the last 40 years, not hifi. If they lose the guitar market it will be a lot harder for them to stay in business. Class D is a direct threat to that.

I've not been diverting this thread- if you read it from the beginning you will see that you were commenting about class D as well as other members; all in the same light as myself. Since you single me out it feels like because you have been unable to show evidence of your position that you've chosen to attack me instead. If this is false then please provide a link. I note that you claim to have mentioned a person; could you provide a link? If no I will assume that claim to be false. If you can provide a link then I'm happy to address the misinformation with him directly.
 
nc42acc said:
Mark I am always serious my friend. Hope you are doing well. :celebrate008_2::hey:
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Thanks Marty. I am doing well. Do you know the difference between a Class A amp and a Class A/B?
 
Hey Mark I know the basics and enough to be semi literate. I am thinking I will get a good education in this thread. So when I think of tube amps I am immediately drawn to 300B versions.


mep said:
Thanks Marty. I am doing well. Do you know the difference between a Class A amp and a Class A/B?
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For my main music listening system, I have never owned any amps other than McIntosh. Fortunately their solid state amps run Class A up to about 10-12 watts which is more than enough for my speakers. The sound is wonderful.
 
nc42acc said:
Hey Mark I know the basics and enough to be semi literate. I am thinking I will get a good education in this thread. So when I think of tube amps I am immediately drawn to 300B versions.
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A 300b tube can be operated single-ended in class A1 (no grid current), class A2 (grid current during part of the waveform) and class A3 (which is the subject of a patent by Jack Elliano of Electra Fidelity, since retired).

It can also be operated push-pull in class A1, A2, AB and B. The advantage of push-pull is greater power, greater efficiency and potentially lower distortion (which can result in smoother more detailed presentation as opposed to single-ended operation). In class B, an output tube is operating for only 1/2 of the signal waveform and for the other half is not conducting; being in a state of 'cutoff'. In class AB its a combination of A for lower power (usually less than 1-5 Watts) and operating B at higher power levels. This is done to prevent crossover distortion that is common with operation in class B at low power. Another way to prevent class B from making distortion (which is usually due to the collapse of the magnetic field in the output transformer when the tube stops conducting; a process similar to how a spark coil works in a car) is to use a push-pull circuit known as a Circlotron. A Circlotron circuit does not have a DC component in the primary of the output transformer, so there is no collapse of the magnetic field. Probably more than you need to know, but there it is...

The 300b is a fairly linear tube but does not rule the roost in that regard. The value of having such a linear tube is that you don't need to run feedback to achieve fairly good linearity. If operated single-ended in class A1 (which is 99% of all SETs made) then care must be taken to use a speaker that is easy to drive and having an efficiency high enough that in the room to be used the amplifier output does not exceed about 20% of full power. This is to prevent higher ordered harmonics from being present on musical transients, which can impart a sense of 'dynamics' but is really distortion masquerading as such due to how it interacts with the human ear. If you are an SET fan, reading this may have just ruined it for you, since the awareness that the 'dynamics' is really just distortion can affect your listening experience! But you can avoid that by simply using a more efficient speaker (and all that goes with that; probably not all that simple...), which most people don't, since you read about how 'dynamic' SETs are all the time. A sound level pressure meter, which is available as an app for smartphones, sorts that out pretty quickly. Dynamics should only come from the music and no-where else.
 
Wow! Thank you very much for the in depth tube amp information. It is a great resource to have forums like this with the actual industry experts who respond.

atmasphere said:
A 300b tube can be operated single-ended in class A1 (no grid current), class A2 (grid current during part of the waveform) and class A3 (which is the subject of a patent by Jack Elliano of Electra Fidelity, since retired).

It can also be operated push-pull in class A1, A2, AB and B. The advantage of push-pull is greater power, greater efficiency and potentially lower distortion (which can result in smoother more detailed presentation as opposed to single-ended operation). In class B, an output tube is operating for only 1/2 of the signal waveform and for the other half is not conducting; being in a state of 'cutoff'. In class AB its a combination of A for lower power (usually less than 1-5 Watts) and operating B at higher power levels. This is done to prevent crossover distortion that is common with operation in class B at low power. Another way to prevent class B from making distortion (which is usually due to the collapse of the magnetic field in the output transformer when the tube stops conducting; a process similar to how a spark coil works in a car) is to use a push-pull circuit known as a Circlotron. A Circlotron circuit does not have a DC component in the primary of the output transformer, so there is no collapse of the magnetic field. Probably more than you need to know, but there it is...

The 300b is a fairly linear tube but does not rule the roost in that regard. The value of having such a linear tube is that you don't need to run feedback to achieve fairly good linearity. If operated single-ended in class A1 (which is 99% of all SETs made) then care must be taken to use a speaker that is easy to drive and having an efficiency high enough that in the room to be used the amplifier output does not exceed about 20% of full power. This is to prevent higher ordered harmonics from being present on musical transients, which can impart a sense of 'dynamics' but is really distortion masquerading as such due to how it interacts with the human ear. If you are an SET fan, reading this may have just ruined it for you, since the awareness that the 'dynamics' is really just distortion can affect your listening experience! But you can avoid that by simply using a more efficient speaker (and all that goes with that; probably not all that simple...), which most people don't, since you read about how 'dynamic' SETs are all the time. A sound level pressure meter, which is available as an app for smartphones, sorts that out pretty quickly. Dynamics should only come from the music and no-where else.
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atmasphere said:
A 300b tube can be operated single-ended in class A1 (no grid current), class A2 (grid current during part of the waveform) and class A3 (which is the subject of a patent by Jack Elliano of Electra Fidelity, since retired).

It can also be operated push-pull in class A1, A2, AB and B. The advantage of push-pull is greater power, greater efficiency and potentially lower distortion (which can result in smoother more detailed presentation as opposed to single-ended operation). In class B, an output tube is operating for only 1/2 of the signal waveform and for the other half is not conducting; being in a state of 'cutoff'. In class AB its a combination of A for lower power (usually less than 1-5 Watts) and operating B at higher power levels. This is done to prevent crossover distortion that is common with operation in class B at low power. Another way to prevent class B from making distortion (which is usually due to the collapse of the magnetic field in the output transformer when the tube stops conducting; a process similar to how a spark coil works in a car) is to use a push-pull circuit known as a Circlotron. A Circlotron circuit does not have a DC component in the primary of the output transformer, so there is no collapse of the magnetic field. Probably more than you need to know, but there it is...

The 300b is a fairly linear tube but does not rule the roost in that regard. The value of having such a linear tube is that you don't need to run feedback to achieve fairly good linearity. If operated single-ended in class A1 (which is 99% of all SETs made) then care must be taken to use a speaker that is easy to drive and having an efficiency high enough that in the room to be used the amplifier output does not exceed about 20% of full power. This is to prevent higher ordered harmonics from being present on musical transients, which can impart a sense of 'dynamics' but is really distortion masquerading as such due to how it interacts with the human ear. If you are an SET fan, reading this may have just ruined it for you, since the awareness that the 'dynamics' is really just distortion can affect your listening experience! But you can avoid that by simply using a more efficient speaker (and all that goes with that; probably not all that simple...), which most people don't, since you read about how 'dynamic' SETs are all the time. A sound level pressure meter, which is available as an app for smartphones, sorts that out pretty quickly. Dynamics should only come from the music and no-where else.
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Now I want to hear Mep's explanation.:popcorn:
 
atmasphere said:
A 300b tube can be operated single-ended in class A1 (no grid current), class A2 (grid current during part of the waveform) and class A3 (which is the subject of a patent by Jack Elliano of Electra Fidelity, since retired).

It can also be operated push-pull in class A1, A2, AB and B. The advantage of push-pull is greater power, greater efficiency and potentially lower distortion (which can result in smoother more detailed presentation as opposed to single-ended operation). In class B, an output tube is operating for only 1/2 of the signal waveform and for the other half is not conducting; being in a state of 'cutoff'. In class AB its a combination of A for lower power (usually less than 1-5 Watts) and operating B at higher power levels. This is done to prevent crossover distortion that is common with operation in class B at low power. Another way to prevent class B from making distortion (which is usually due to the collapse of the magnetic field in the output transformer when the tube stops conducting; a process similar to how a spark coil works in a car) is to use a push-pull circuit known as a Circlotron. A Circlotron circuit does not have a DC component in the primary of the output transformer, so there is no collapse of the magnetic field. Probably more than you need to know, but there it is...

The 300b is a fairly linear tube but does not rule the roost in that regard. The value of having such a linear tube is that you don't need to run feedback to achieve fairly good linearity. If operated single-ended in class A1 (which is 99% of all SETs made) then care must be taken to use a speaker that is easy to drive and having an efficiency high enough that in the room to be used the amplifier output does not exceed about 20% of full power. This is to prevent higher ordered harmonics from being present on musical transients, which can impart a sense of 'dynamics' but is really distortion masquerading as such due to how it interacts with the human ear. If you are an SET fan, reading this may have just ruined it for you, since the awareness that the 'dynamics' is really just distortion can affect your listening experience! But you can avoid that by simply using a more efficient speaker (and all that goes with that; probably not all that simple...), which most people don't, since you read about how 'dynamic' SETs are all the time. A sound level pressure meter, which is available as an app for smartphones, sorts that out pretty quickly. Dynamics should only come from the music and no-where else.
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nicoff said:
Now I want to hear Mep's explanation.:popcorn:
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I hope you weren't sitting on a picket fence waiting for my answer. Ralph did an excellent job of giving the text book definitions for the different classes of amplifier operation.
 
mep said:
I hope you weren't sitting on a picket fence waiting for my answer. Ralph did an excellent job of giving the text book definitions for the different classes of amplifier operation.
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I somewhat doubt Jack's patent to have made it into any textbooks at this point! He sent an amp using class A3 to us about ten years ago and it was quite nice. It used a single 300b and legitimately made 11 or 12 Watts, with lower distortion than you could get out of the tube running class A1. I see no reason why it could not be used in Push-Pull as well but never pursued it and I don't think Jack has either.
 
atmasphere said:
I somewhat doubt Jack's patent to have made it into any textbooks at this point! He sent an amp using class A3 to us about ten years ago and it was quite nice. It used a single 300b and legitimately made 11 or 12 Watts, with lower distortion than you could get out of the tube running class A1. I see no reason why it could not be used in Push-Pull as well but never pursued it and I don't think Jack has either.
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I wasn't referring to Jack's patent, just the definitions for classic Class A and Class A/B amplifiers.
 
Shadowfax said:
It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.
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Please keep your personal conspiracy theories out of this forum.

Edit:

1) leaf blowers really. I tough these things only existed in memes where white middle aged men shout angerly at clouts

2) Change must sometimes be forced,. Humans are stubborn creatures who romanticize a past that never was (the happy nuclear family). So if class A gets banned there will be some tears, 5 years later no one will care.

3) I'm using Octave tube power amps right now, I am sort of planning to probably sell these in the next 5 year and will buy class D.

4) EU is most likely banning sales of new ICE engines form 2035
 
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