Are all speakers just really small speaker.

KingRT10

KingRT10

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2 channel music only:

The reason I ask is when you use subs, it seems as if my full range speakers are reduced to a monitor, dividing its time with a sub and released of all low frequency duities.

Should a Sub/box that is specifially "constructed and dedicated" to have dynamic range, in low end frequency like a JL113's, do a much better job than just a woofer(s) of almost all full range speakers?

My main speakers now are My McIntosh LS 360's and Sonus Faber Elipsa's. Full Range The Mcintosh 360's claim to go down to 29hz

How could their (my) woofer(s) keep up with my dedicated 2 Fathom JL113's subwoofers, without producing much more distortion at 80 hz and below or have close to the same dynamic range of a subwoofer?
The building material for a subwoofer is substantial.

Yet, I often read about audiophiles who prefer just full range speakers alone. What does just a full range speaker bring to the listenning table, vs a properly set up sub system?
 
You raise an interesting question. Some people can successfully blend their full range speakers and subs. Others prefer to cut things off at a certain point (room measurements help a lot here to determine where frequencies are really dropping off in your room - for example, your speakers may go down to 30hz, but that's with a 12db drop for example). Therefore, you may prefer to cut things off at 45hz. DSP units like the DSPeaker 2.0 and MEN220 can be VERY helpful in these situations where you wish to blend sub(s) and full range speakers.

Full range speakers if setup properly should provide sufficient and more coherent bass. There are many audiophiles I know who like to have a sub present for just a little bit of bass enhancement which they believe increases the midrange presentation.

I've had subs in and out of my system many times - including JL Audio F series subs. I've always preferred my systems sans subs - unless I was using the Raidho D1's or Sonus Faber Guaneri Mementos.
 
I have read (Not verified for myself.) research/data that showed there was a lot of distortion
in 10k to 20k speakers trying to play 80hz down, compared to a sub which is made to produce these frequencies and the dynamic range.
A subs low frequency response is intense and you would think just the cabinet construction alone (Which I can confirm versus my own speakers) would be a huge benefit, and then the actual sub-woofer it's self, over Full range woofer(s), would also be out performed.

Mike can you explain what you exactly mean, when you write "Coherent" vs a correctly set up sub system? What is the sub system not doing right in some peoples ears.
I would much rather use just full range speakers for music, but my ears seem to be use to the bass presence now. When I pull the subs it seems to take the authority away from some music.
Live concerts are also closer to a Sub-woofer system, often too much so.
I am not even sure what sound we as consumers is the gold standard for our speakers to replicate. Studio, Live, Hall ect...
 
Mike said:
Full range speakers if setup properly should provide sufficient and more coherent bass. There are many audiophiles I know who like to have a sub present for just a little bit of bass enhancement which they believe increases the midrange presentation.
Click to expand...

+1 !! My speakers have really good crisp bass, but I added the sub for ultra low presence, feeling without BOOM. The value add benefit is it does give a bit of timbre to the mids , for me bringing a bit more depth (I think) to the soundstage...
 
#1: Don't force the woofer in the mains to go beyond the range it can comfortably produce. The frequency slope and frequency the subwoofer tapers in should be slightly above where the mains woofer starts to taper out. The slope one fades out should complement the slope the other fades in. If the mains woofer is rated at say, 30 Hz, set the crossover to 35 Hz so the mains woofer is not taxed.

#2: Use an active crossover to divide the frequencies in the proper frequency range to satisfy #1.
 
GaryProtein said:
#1: Don't force the woofer in the mains to go beyond the range it can comfortably produce.
.
Click to expand...

I guess the question is, does a good/great subwoofer out perform a woofer, even if the woofer is in it's "comfortable range"?

Carl Kennedy from JL would say yes, set the sub at 80hz. It's built and constructed for the job.
Full range speakers are not.

Sumiko would say Full Range speakers, (My Elipsa's) set up correctly, are enough.

Which produces a more accurate note or pitch 80hz and under?
 
KingRT10 said:


I guess the question is, does a good/great subwoofer out perform a woofer, even if the woofer is in it's "comfortable range"?

Carl Kennedy from JL would say yes, set the sub at 80hz. It's built and constructed for the job.
Full range speakers are not.

Sumiko would say Full Range speakers, (My Elipsa's) set up correctly, are enough.

Which produces a more accurate note or pitch 80hz and under?
Click to expand...

I'd say yes too. ...Small speakers, and full range speakers. ...With electronic synthesizer music, and full classical orchestras, organ music, heavy metal & rock music, RAP & Punk music.

Plus! With separate subs you have an advantage: Positioning.

Huge full range speakers (big towers with two or three or four 15" woofers in them) are positioning restricted.
... Unless you separate the woofer section from the mid/high section (four-piece system).
 
Wow, third double-post today! ...Something is strangely awkward sometimes.
It never happens to me at other audio sites, only here.

* I would simply delete it, but we can't. So, I usually try to add some interesting to the topic.

A subwoofer(s) is/are real tough to blend properly with the mains. You do need some smart type of digital EQ.
But when you do, pure magic! ...Your room is now fully balanced and sound.
 
KingRT10 said:


I guess the question is, does a good/great subwoofer out perform a woofer, even if the woofer is in it's "comfortable range"?

Carl Kennedy from JL would say yes, set the sub at 80hz. It's built and constructed for the job.
Full range speakers are not.

Sumiko would say Full Range speakers, (My Elipsa's) set up correctly, are enough.

Which produces a more accurate note or pitch 80hz and under?
Click to expand...

For most of our full range speakers FOR MUSIC, 40 Hz would be a good starting point for the crossover between woofer and subwoofer.

80 Hz seems much too high for music. I think he is referring more to a HT set-up.
 
This is so vague and vast of a subject. ...So many variables. ...Stereo, multichannel, music, movies, full range, room's acoustics, crossovers, digital EQuing, ....

For example: For 5.1 multichannel music (SACDs) some recommend five same full range speakers all around, plus a separate subwoofer for the .1 LFE.
And I tend to agree with this philosophy; at least I set my five speakers to full range when listening to multichannel music from Hybrid SACDs. ...My mains can do 30 Hz, my center about the same, and my surrounds about the same too - but they are all different (manufacturers).
And besides, 30 Hz is not enough - you want 20 Hz.

* Thing is this: No matter what your own use (stereo or multichannel music - surround sound from movies), it's good to be close to what the sound recording engineer used in his own setup. ...Speakers, positioning, room, acoustics, cables, audio/video gear, etc. ...The closest to his own calibration.

Or! An even better setup than his own setup. :) ...And EQued not to his taste but to your own preference.
 
As the topic "states", 2 channel only! There is without a doubt a very fine art to bass, this is exemplified by the people who put subs into their system, have the wrong integration at the wrong crossover frequencies & as an aside as few can pick the room with their ear, fail to do a proper room frequency scan for proper application of the sub/subs.

A very good set-up & well implemented room would have you at times wondering if the subs are indeed in the system as the they are that seamless. Sometimes we over emphasise bass with a physical as well as an aural experience, this is where the doof doof crowd need to get on the short bus. In explanation in every day listening it is very rare that you will encounter earth shattering bass on any regularity, some things go that low, most don't, but, when you do & you have a system with implemented subs that deliver, you are the happy camper.
The big thing is matching your sub/subs with your speakers as we all know 2 channel can really boogie with speed & pace at times, some subs just aren't designed for that compromise of speed/agility versus tone & ambience of the original designer's peripherals

At the end of the day the catalyst is, how do you like your sound? As in the detail & no colouration crowd of the original source versus the warmer & maybe less fatiguing crowd, so too does the sub category intervene in personal listening preferences as well as crossing the line of too much bass to the point of obscuring the detail. To me the set up that is perfect is the fine tuned woofer, regardless of with or without mid/high range speakers in the same enclosure, if they can't do it well with other speakers in the box then it is a bad design. Do not settle for mediocrity.
 
I often read about audiophiles who prefer just full range speakers alone. What does just a full range speaker bring to the listenning table, vs a properly set up sub system?
Click to expand...

There are many reasons why many audiophiles prefer full-range speakers to a full-range speaker + dedicated woofer combo. Here are just a few...

1) For starters, getting a sub (or two, or four, etc..) to integrate seamlessly in with a set of speakers isn't easy. In fact, it's usually a time-consuming affair. Even for the pro's who work with this stuff on a daily basis. Why?

2) Well for one, when you introduce more bottom end, it's not uncommon to aggravate room modes that may have otherwise gone fairly unnoticed on your "full range" speakers. You'll hear these modes in the form of unnatural "boosts" at a given frequency (or frequencies) within your room. Figuring out where these modes are in your room will be a chore in and of itself. Once you figure out exactly where the problems reside - you'll then need to come up with an adequate resolution. That could require a bit of work. Worse yet, sub's are finicky creatures that could care less about your feng-shui. More times than not, a sub will tend to sound it's best in the very spot that you'd rather not put it in. So the question then becomes - how far are you willing to go to attain low-end perfection?

3) Alright, so let's say you manage to accomplish all of the above and everything is harmonized... if you're primarily into home-theater, then kick back, grab a cold one - and let out a grand HUZZAH! You're done! If however, you're trying to integrate a sub or two in with a snazzy stereo system, you've got something ELSE to worry about, and that something else is tone. In all my years of toying with hi-fi, I've come to appreciate one thing; every piece that goes into your speaker/amp/whatever sounds exactly like what it is. An aluminum tweeter will sound exactly like that. An electrostatic polymer will always sound like it's material. The problem here is that many subs will not carry the same 'tonal signature' as your main loudspeakers. If you're lucky, you'll happen across a powered-sub that uses woofer material that's similar to what's found on your main speakers. Anyway, finding a sub that will *tonally* match your system can become yet another chore.

4) My last observation has to do with placebo factor. Obviously this is subjective by nature and is *not* applicable to everybody. That said, I've come to find that many people are far more forgiving/accepting of their loudspeakers low-end limitations so long as the speakers fulfill their basic "bass" needs. However, once you throw "more" into the mix.. that 'more' being a powered sub or two.. the ballgame suddenly changes. Now you have more! And odds are, you probably paid quite a bit to get that 'more' - so you'll naturally want to make sure that you take complete advantage of the extra boom-boom!

Speaking personally, I find this situation to be something of a double edged sword. Why? Because integrating a sub can be difficult. Because I listen to a WIDE variety of music. Because there are times when I want bass that's super tight, tonally correct, and articulate (jazz, classical, folk, etc etc..), yet there are other times when I like my bass to get flat out nasty. I'm talking about gut-wrenching, teeth shattering bass, baby! So in the rare situations when I have access to 'more', it's tough for me to resist constantly fiddling with the subs to accommodate whatever music I'm listening to at the time. Obviously, that's my flaw. Not everybody is going to share it. But I nonetheless mention this stuff because I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this regard. Having 'more' can be fun, but after awhile, I find myself looking back at the simpler days with rose tinted glasses... back to a time when I accepted a speakers limitations for what they were, and found a way to enjoy them just the same.

Well, that's my take on the situation...
 
A couple of quick things as I'm posting from my phone.

We are not very sensitive to distortion below 100hz.

Multiple subs are usually the best way to have clean and smooth bass response. Open baffle/dipole speakers are generally more immune to bass nodes as their dispersion doesn't excite bass nodes the same way as a traditional monopole(ported/sealed) speaker.

If your speakers are ported, plug the ports for smoother integration with you sub. Besides having less overlapping response at higher frequencies, your woofers will have less overhang (sealed Q of .5 is optimal).

Sub adjustments are best made with a microphone and software such as the Omnimic or Room EQ Wizard. Then fine tune to your personal preference by ear. Since our hearing is much less sensitive at lower frequencies, you will not know what you're missing without some assistance(sorry to hurt some egos). :)
 
Shoot - your Alexia's cross over the bass unit at 150hz. By many people definition, it is a sub built in. To me it's not a sub because it doesn't go low enough. Of course thats why Wilson in their best active displays over the years always include their Thor subs.

That last 1/2 octave is very very expensive and it takes up A LOT of room, so it's easy to live without. But in pure music listening, it adds more than you think.

Mike said:
Big +1.

Except all my Maggie's did better with subs integrated.
Click to expand...
 
I would be willing to try a pair of REL subs or to better understand Wilson subs (do they integrate and connect like REL subs or are they more like JL Audio and most other subs in that they need to connect to a sub out on a preamp?)

If I have to also add DSP, I can't say I would be all that interested.
 
I run my Wilson subs out of my secondary outputs on my preamp. The first set going to my main speakers and the other set going to the sub crossover.

I know when i was looking into Alexias, that the factory suggested I keep my Watch Dog subs even for the Alexias. I was surprised by their recommendation.
 
Mike said:
I would be willing to try a pair of REL subs or to better understand Wilson subs (do they integrate and connect like REL subs or are they more like JL Audio and most other subs in that they need to connect to a sub out on a preamp?)

If I have to also add DSP, I can't say I would be all that interested.
Click to expand...

The Wilson subs require the Wilson Controller and a separate amp.

product_control1.jpg
 
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