Are all speakers just really small speaker.

Lots of good information here. I use Maggies with 3 Rel Subs. Rel in my experience just has better tools for integrating Subs that the others I've tried. I could not live without Subs or a "Big Boy" System. For the music I listen to having a bottom octave is mandatory.
The key making my room/system work, was asymmetrical placement and Measure Measure Measure. It was impossible to come close by ear.
 
still-one said:
I have never heard a sub (in any system) add anything that I could not live without.
Click to expand...

Helps a lot to have speakers as magnificent as yours Jim. If I would have a pair myself a subwoofer or two wouldn't cross my mind so much, but I would still experiment just for the fun of what could possibly be missing in my room, to my ears and body, and in my life.

* Great thread. :)
 
I have always preferred full-range speakers without a subwoofer. I don't like the idea of mixing/matching drivers, cross-overs, and amplifiers from different manufactures. I also never liked the looks of a subwoofer(s) sitting on the floor next to my main speakers.
 
Say you have a live acoustic jazz band in the largest room of your home.

There is a drummer, an acoustic bass player, a trumpeter, a tenor saxophonist, and a guitar player (acoustic jazz guitar), and a female jazz singer. ...A pianist too.
...No crossovers between them, no microphones, totally different instruments, materials, and audio spectrum's frequencies, and tonalities.
Each instrument, and voice, has its own acoustic property, its own sound signature, and its own vibration, and reverberation.

Now, how many drivers (speakers) do we need to reproduce faithfully this experience? ...What sizes, what materials, what kind of crossover's slopes between them drivers, what kind of speaker enclosures, ... to reproduce each instrument's tone in its own dimensional space and without affecting (distortion) the other instrument next to it (by few feet up to few more) on that real sound stage?
 
look wise - i agree - they look ridiculous

sound wise - when integrated well - they are great, but take some time to get it right. and thats with the same cone material and manufacturer. who would have guessed. in fact, I had a lot more trouble integrating my 2 wilson subs with my wilson duettes which is what I bought the subs for than I did with my Raidho D3s. the D3s were a bitch to get set up (read almost impossible), but adding the subs after getting the D3s right was amazingly easy. strange this hobby of ours. :)



Hiker said:
I have always preferred full-range speakers without a subwoofer. I don't like the idea of mixing/matching drivers, cross-overs, and amplifiers from different manufactures. I also never liked the looks of a subwoofer(s) sitting on the floor next to my main speakers.
Click to expand...
 
The only way that I have been able to a/b Full Range speakers Versus the same Full Range speakers plus 2 subs (80hz x-over) is with a top of the line AVR. One button back and forth comparison.
The result was a huge difference, advantage Subs and Full Range speakers.
The speakers were my McIntosh LS360's (Circa 10k price retail) which sounded thin without the subs.
Maybe the top of the line AVR stereo pass through was horrible or the JL subs made a world of difference by adding weight to the notes.

I have also been to "The Room" with very expensive subs that played with 90k speakers, where I must have been in a bad seat for the 2 channel session, because there was a very loud drone, where I actually thought something happened to a ground wire. I am guessing that I was in a bad room spot. ("Mode")
I left questioning subs for 2 channel. I now believe it was a case of double bass without any cross-over. Which is fine for HT but not Stereo music.
Others from this forum may have also been in that session. Not positive.
 
KingRT10 said:
The only way that I have been able to a/b Full Range speakers Versus the same Full Range speakers plus 2 subs (80hz x-over) is with a top of the line AVR. One button back and forth comparison.
The result was a huge difference, advantage Subs and Full Range speakers.
The speakers were my McIntosh LS360's (Circa 10k price retail) which sounded thin without the subs.
Maybe the top of the line AVR stereo pass through was horrible or the JL subs made a world of difference by adding weight to the notes.

I have also been to "The Room" with very expensive subs that played with 90k speakers, where I must have been in a bad seat for the 2 channel session, because there was a very loud drone, where I actually thought something happened to a ground wire. I am guessing that I was in a bad room spot. ("Mode")
I left questioning subs for 2 channel. I now believe it was a case of double bass without any cross-over. Which is fine for HT but not Stereo music.
Others from this forum may have also been in that session. Not positive.
Click to expand...

I also have a set of McIntosh LS360's currently running without a subwoofer and the sound is natural and well extended. I initially started out with a Mcntosh PS112 subwoofer along with the LS360's but thought the system sounded too bloated and bass-heavy. One 12" subwoofer and four 10" bass woofers overwhelmed my listening room.
 
Hiker said:
I also have a set of McIntosh LS360's currently running without a subwoofer and the sound is natural and well extended. I initially started out with a Mcntosh PS112 subwoofer along with the LS360's but thought the system sounded too bloated and bass-heavy. One 12" subwoofer and four 10" bass woofers overwhelmed my listening room.
Click to expand...

It appears your subwoofer volume was set too high and the lack of an active crossover preventing overlap is what overwhelmed your room. It really doesn't matter how many woofers there are. It's how loud their volume is set compared to the rest of the system. More woofers, spread out will give a more even bass response.
 
GaryProtein said:
It appears your subwoofer volume was set too high and the lack of an active crossover preventing overlap is what overwhelmed your room. It really doesn't matter how many woofers there are. It's how loud their volume is set compared to the rest of the system. More woofers, spread out will give a more even bass response.
Click to expand...

+1000!
 
GaryProtein said:
It appears your subwoofer volume was set too high and the lack of an active crossover preventing overlap is what overwhelmed your room. It really doesn't matter how many woofers there are. It's how loud their volume is set compared to the rest of the system. More woofers, spread out will give a more even bass response.
Click to expand...

Of course it matters. The Mcntosh engineers designed the LS360 to deliver a full-range sound. The subwoofer was not turned up too loud. If the system is oriented towards the lower frequencies the sound will not be balanced and natural. Even when I used a high-pass filter the sound was best without the subwoofer. There is always an urge for some audiophiles to want to continue pushing a system so they can keep justifying more purchases.
 
KingRT10 said:
I have also been to "The Room" with very expensive subs that played with 90k speakers, where I must have been in a bad seat for the 2 channel session, because there was a very loud drone, where I actually thought something happened to a ground wire. I am guessing that I was in a bad room spot. ("Mode")
I left questioning subs for 2 channel. I now believe it was a case of double bass without any cross-over. Which is fine for HT but not Stereo music.
Others from this forum may have also been in that session. Not positive.
Click to expand...
I wasn't aware that you were there also.

The same person set up that room as another friend's...my friend's room had no drone or overhang. I believe what you were referring to was due to the very limited room dimensions and/or some tinkering after the setup.
 
the professor said:
Ya lost me

Huh?
Click to expand...

What I meant is that our hobby is fine, nothing strange 'bout; only that some people take it to the extreme. ...All in a very good way. And it happens in all life's venues, all hobbies, not just audio (music listening and playing).

It's the people who are passionate in pursuing their hobby who also decide of the strangeness' extent, level of their hobby.
And only in relation to their own pursuit, and not in relation to what some other people might think or believe.

That, is what I meant exactly Jock. ...Anything else is getting away from the true reality.

__________________

And no, not all speakers are small speakers; because a bunch of them can do 20Hz real clean and loud.
But can few separate subwoofers extend the experience? You bet they can! ...And there's nothing strange about that either.
It's balanced science.
 
Hiker said:
Of course it matters. The Mcntosh engineers designed the LS360 to deliver a full-range sound. The subwoofer was not turned up too loud. If the system is oriented towards the lower frequencies the sound will not be balanced and natural. Even when I used a high-pass filter the sound was best without the subwoofer. There is always an urge for some audiophiles to want to continue pushing a system so they can keep justifying more purchases.
Click to expand...

A high pass filter is not a crossover. Both the mains and the subwoofer must be limited in their frequency ranges and seamlessly blended, which is what an active crossover will do for you. It really doesn't matter how many woofers there are because you can have one woofer doing a lot of work or many doing relatively little, so I do think the volume was too high and there was probably too much overlap of the subwoofer and mains woofers causing the bass to be looted and the room overwhelmed.

A very full range speaker may have the subwoofer crossed over at 30 Hz, where a more limited low frequency full range speaker may be crossed over around 40-60 Hz.
 
Gotcha

Thanks

NorthStar said:
What I meant is that our hobby is fine, nothing strange 'bout; only that some people take it to the extreme. ...All in a very good way. And it happens in all life's venues, all hobbies, not just audio (music listening and playing).

It's the people who are passionate in pursuing their hobby who also decide of the strangeness' extent, level of their hobby.
And only in relation to their own pursuit, and not in relation to what some other people might think or believe.

That, is what I meant exactly Jock. ...Anything else is getting away from the true reality.

__________________

And no, not all speakers are small speakers; because a bunch of them can do 20Hz real clean and loud.
But can few separate subwoofers extend the experience? You bet they can! ...And there's nothing strange about that either.
It's balanced science.
Click to expand...
 
Of course it is. That is what a high pass filter (or active crossover) does. It directs upper frequencies (as determined) to the mains and lower frequencies (as determined) to the subwoofer. You don't want to run the mains full-range with a subwoofer or you will likely cause combing / frequency cancellation.
 
A high pass filter really isn't the type of crossover you need. That only limits what goes to the mains. A crossover has a high pass for your mains and a low pass for the subwoofer. You need both. You really cannot depend on the selector dial on the subwoofer to perfectly complement the mains and some other filter. You need one unit to perform both.
 
Face said:
I wasn't aware that you were there also.

The same person set up that room as another friend's...my friend's room had no drone or overhang. I believe what you were referring to was due to the very limited room dimensions and/or some tinkering after the setup.
Click to expand...

I believe he did not have a crossover and wanted to impress the audiance with his big fathoms
(Shake their pants legs) So he pumped up the Fathoms for HT but it did not work out well in stereo. Heavy "drone"
He said at first that McIntosh made him specialtly cross-overs but later kind of admitted they were just tacked on. I was a guest in his house, so I could not exactly pin him down on every double talk that I spotted. It was almost every time his mouth opened.
PS
I tried to negotiate a deal to purchase his Ferrari but he forgot that he had posted the facts of it on the Ferrari forums over the years, which I found in a search. Of course nothing matched up to the sale pitch. 40k in rims and tires became " We'll I paid to much for the car as I could not wait." "A premium for early ownership" When I pointed out he stated something else of the Ferrari forum. Radio silence.

The whole experience spooked me away from Subs for 2 channel music until I ask for feed back from others. Carl Kennedy from JL had a strong view of using JL's even up to 100hz down and placing the subs next to the mains. As I stated before, he says the are built for the job compared to most full range speakers and cabnets. Plus less measurable distotion.
A woofer cant keep up with a subwoofer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top