ARC Ref 250's on Revel Studio2's ? ....
- Thread starter joeinid
- Start date
Mike,
I was a solid state guy and never considered tubes until a couple of years ago. At that time I was looking for a new preamp to replace my Pass Labs XP-10. I had the Ayre K-XR in house for a few weeks and really liked it but it was a bit expensive. I had also considered a Pass XP-30 but a friend convinced me to try tubes.
So I called ARC and my Ref 5 was ordered. I had to wait about four months since my unit was the first REF 5SE to be shipped. This was my first tube equipment so I didn't know what to expect. I was shocked how good the REF5SE sounded, even better than the K-XR which was still in my system. I liked the REF5 SE so much that I bought a. DAC 8 the following week. Two weeks after that I called ARC and asked if the REF250 would work with the Salon 2 and I was told that it would. I ordered the REF250s without hearing or seeing it.
It was a big gamble but it worked out pretty well. I never intended to buy the REF 250 but after getting the REF 5SE I became an ARC addict.
As for bi-amping the Salon 2, I had considered it since I also have a Krell Evolution 403E but its gain is much higher than the REF250 so I would need to add an attenuator to lower the gain. I think the REF250 has pretty good bass, much better than what I was expecting from tube amps.
Rich
I was a solid state guy and never considered tubes until a couple of years ago. At that time I was looking for a new preamp to replace my Pass Labs XP-10. I had the Ayre K-XR in house for a few weeks and really liked it but it was a bit expensive. I had also considered a Pass XP-30 but a friend convinced me to try tubes.
So I called ARC and my Ref 5 was ordered. I had to wait about four months since my unit was the first REF 5SE to be shipped. This was my first tube equipment so I didn't know what to expect. I was shocked how good the REF5SE sounded, even better than the K-XR which was still in my system. I liked the REF5 SE so much that I bought a. DAC 8 the following week. Two weeks after that I called ARC and asked if the REF250 would work with the Salon 2 and I was told that it would. I ordered the REF250s without hearing or seeing it.
It was a big gamble but it worked out pretty well. I never intended to buy the REF 250 but after getting the REF 5SE I became an ARC addict.
As for bi-amping the Salon 2, I had considered it since I also have a Krell Evolution 403E but its gain is much higher than the REF250 so I would need to add an attenuator to lower the gain. I think the REF250 has pretty good bass, much better than what I was expecting from tube amps.
Rich
BruceLet
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,118
I love my new Studio 2s. I am driving them....switching off between a McIntosh MC452 and an ARC REF 150, with an ARC REF 5SE pre. First impressions are great, but the frustration is that I have them unplugged after only one day of burn in, maybe thirty hours. We are having a week long heat spell in the North East and I have had a number of brown outs and two black out in the last few days. The ARC and Revels seem to be the surprise so far, though. Another hot day today and I will probably leave the system powered down.
the professor
Well-known member
That sucks
New toys but can't play.
New toys but can't play.
highEndguy
New member
In my country is 90+F every day
So we adjust our life around the hot
Weather. That's why we like to travel
to cold places around the world in winter
And all of you the opposite.
Hahaha
So we adjust our life around the hot
Weather. That's why we like to travel
to cold places around the world in winter
And all of you the opposite.
Hahaha
Not all!
In Florida, summer is our winter. Lots of indoor activities. Then October comes and it's 8 months of amazing weather.
MDP
Behavior Moderator (be nice police!)
Rich, what other amps did you try on your Salon 2's before the RE 250's ??
BruceLet
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,118
That sucks
New toys but can't play.
Jock....Yeah, but worth the wait.
- Thread Author
- #89
BruceLet
Active member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,118
MDP
Behavior Moderator (be nice police!)
Thanks Rich, those are some great amps !! And I guess that means the REF 250's are the winner. Do you think you could describe the different sounds from each amp ?
I know I'm being a pain,but I'm seriously considering the REF 250's, your opinion of the combination of REF 250's and Salon 2's is very important to me !!
A couple more questions, Will they play Rock ??? And will they play loud ??
- Thread Author
- #94
Thanks Bruce. I appreciate your trust. I may not know how to describe what I hear, but I know what I like.
Mark and Mike,
It's been a while since I listened to these amps so I am just going by my memory.
Ayre M-XR
An amp that I really wanted to like but it just wasn't compatible with the Salon 2s. It had fantastic highs, mids and great soundstage but it just didn't have it in the low end. The Salon sounded like only two of the woofers were Working. I really like the Ayre K-XR preamp. I still think about getting one.
Pass X250.5
Great vocal, very sweet and smooth, but sounded a bit on the warm side. It sounded more tube like. It was paired with a Pass XP-10. It was not my cup of tea.
Krell FPB450MCX
The 450 could not match the refined sound of the M-XR or REF 250 amps but when paired with the REF 5SE, it was pretty darn good. None of these amps could match the bass of a Krell, not even the REF 250s. I think these are really great amps, especially at used price.
Krell Evolution 403E
My current amp for HT and music. Typical unmatched Krell bass but with a more refined mids and highs. The vocal is smoother than the 450 and the treble is more natural. The best Krell I have heard and I have owned many Krell amps. Someday I may get a pair of the 600E.
So how does it compare to the REF 250 ? The 250s have a more 3D like imaging and there is more air around musical notes. It just pulls you into the music a bit more especially with vocals. The Krell has better dynamics and of course low end. I listen to the Krell on most days and the Ref 250s on weekends.
As for rock music with the REF 250, I can't comment on it since I listen to mostly jazz, vocal and classical. I have run the REF 5SE volume to about 55 which is fairly loud for me and the 250s didn't have any problems. I didn't sense any dynamic constriction and it still had good bass control. I don't think I have ever seen the meters go pass half way. I have no doubt that the Ref 250 can drive the Salon 2 with ease.
Rich
Soooo what do you do. Do you buy amps for speakers. Or do you buy speakers for amps????
Just curious. I still think the salon2 in black is about the best looking speaker out there.
I know I know the wood finish is really nice and most prefer it but I prefer the black .
Just wondering if you had no amps and no speakers which way you would purchase?
To me I've been researching revels and it seems if you want to go tubes you should look at something else. Of course Ive never experienced the big watt tube amps like are what you guys are discussing.
I've thought anout getting solid state but I think I'd rather go the other route and maybe try some SET low power tube amps. Can pick up a nice pair for not a whole lot of money.
But I would need speakers that can not only run my 100w snappers but also 15-18w 300b's
And maybe a nice solid state down the road also.
Sorry I think I'm in the wrong thread for this discussion. Lol .
Aren't the salon 3's coming out soon??
Just curious. I still think the salon2 in black is about the best looking speaker out there.
I know I know the wood finish is really nice and most prefer it but I prefer the black .
Just wondering if you had no amps and no speakers which way you would purchase?
To me I've been researching revels and it seems if you want to go tubes you should look at something else. Of course Ive never experienced the big watt tube amps like are what you guys are discussing.
I've thought anout getting solid state but I think I'd rather go the other route and maybe try some SET low power tube amps. Can pick up a nice pair for not a whole lot of money.
But I would need speakers that can not only run my 100w snappers but also 15-18w 300b's
And maybe a nice solid state down the road also.
Sorry I think I'm in the wrong thread for this discussion. Lol .
Aren't the salon 3's coming out soon??
Steve,
My personal philosophy has been to choose the speaker I like and build the rest of the system around them. This can get a bit expensive; however, I don't change speakers that often.
I have not heard that Salon 3s are about to be announced but the 2s have been out for about 5 years. So, maybe it's time....I can tell you that I continue to be extremely happy with my 2s. And, I feel, it would take a significant investment to a much higher priced speaker to do better.
Mike
My personal philosophy has been to choose the speaker I like and build the rest of the system around them. This can get a bit expensive; however, I don't change speakers that often.
I have not heard that Salon 3s are about to be announced but the 2s have been out for about 5 years. So, maybe it's time....I can tell you that I continue to be extremely happy with my 2s. And, I feel, it would take a significant investment to a much higher priced speaker to do better.
Mike
Rich,
Thanks a lot for your comments and insight. I have heard from others the same opinion you have about the Ayre-Salon 2s combo - not good. I have been considering the Pass route - X600.5s or XA200.5s - space, heat and color (my 5SE is black) have been concerns. The fact that the Ref250s work well with the Salon 2s has me seriously considering them - combining them with the DS450 (to drive the bottom end) could be delicious!
Very helpful!
Mike
PS - I listen to mostly Jazz as well with some classic rock and light classical music (Mozart, Chopin, Bach,...).
I know why you're asking this. Those beautiful Manley Snappers! Of course, if you are starting from scratch - then definitely speakers, then amps.....BUT, regardless, you must always keep speaker efficiency rating (X db/1 meter) in mind. Less efficient speakers means limiting choices on amps, and more importantly, sometimes amp type.
Furthermore, your room size, desired listening levels and music type all play critical roles in determining both speakers and amps.
If you like the Revel sound (extremely balanced), then the Studio 2's are a little easier to drive, and to my ears, sound the same as the Salon 2's in a small to midsized room (anything 20 x 25 or less for example) and may work well with your amps.
First - how big is your room? Is it closed or are there any openings to say a kitchen, hallway or bedroom? How much glass is there? Windows? Sliders? Carpet or hardwood/tile floors?
Second - do you have an SPL Meter to measure how loud you listen at both one meter and your listening chair? Get 9 audiophiles in a room like we has yesterday and you will have three yelling "turn it up", three yelling "turn it down" and three saying "just leave it where it is!"
Third - is your room acoustically treated?
Fourth - describe the furniture in the room.....big puffy sofa, chair, what?
All of these questions help determine sound reflection and absorption - which affects sound levels, and ultimately power.
I would at least try the Snappers with Studio 2's.....FWIW.
If you could find a pair of used Sonus Faber Stradivari's for a good price - that's an option - if you listen to classical, jazz, light vocals. But I don't think Snapper tubes and Strads would be good for rock.
If you insist on keeping the snappers and the Studio 2's don't work (or you go listen and don't like them) - then I would start looking at speakers which are 91db or higher. There are lots out there. Sonus Faber, Tannoy, Focal, Klipsch and many others....etc.
But the Studio 2's at 88.7db and 6ohm - are a fairly easy load - even for your 100 watt amps. They MIGHT drive them.
If not, I would try to find a used pair of Sonus Faber Stradivari's, Klipsch Palladium P39-F (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/klipsch_palladium_p-39f_loudspeaker) or Tannoy Westminister Royal SE's, Focal Scala V2 Utopia to demo.
The above list is where I would start.
Mike
As for Salon 3....I don't know.....but the rumor is that they are working on a mega-buck speaker ($80,000+)....but you know how reliable rumors are!
I would not worry about it. If there is a Salon/Studio 3 - it will likely cost more - a lot more!
If Revel had priced the Salon 2 at $50,000 and Studio 2 at $40,000 - the audio snobs would be pining for them!
Don't discount the Studio 2's - I've owned both the Salon 2 and Studio 2 remember - and both sound identical to my ears in my home...and maybe I would give the 0.01% edge to the Studio 2's! They seem to integrate a hair more smoothly than the Salon 2's - possibly due to less drivers or room acoustics.
I would not worry about it. If there is a Salon/Studio 3 - it will likely cost more - a lot more!
If Revel had priced the Salon 2 at $50,000 and Studio 2 at $40,000 - the audio snobs would be pining for them!
Don't discount the Studio 2's - I've owned both the Salon 2 and Studio 2 remember - and both sound identical to my ears in my home...and maybe I would give the 0.01% edge to the Studio 2's! They seem to integrate a hair more smoothly than the Salon 2's - possibly due to less drivers or room acoustics.