Anyone dumping their power conditiner?

Mike Lavigne said:
i see no conflict between the value of measurements and the value of our hearing.

measurements tell us about numbers, but cannot determine music reproduction preferences. numbers cannot determine levels of musical expressiveness. numbers cannot define musical refinement. hifi related power grid products have to be technically successful and sound good too.

the numbers do help us to improve the technical performance of gear; then final design decisions involve listening. at least for the gear i own.

even race cars and lap times involve human interaction as the final component. who would even care about a race between machines.
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I am sorry, I did not understand your point at all. In the typical audiophile fashion, the conversation turns to that which is unmeasurable...

I'll ask you to imagine a high precision electronic scale that is calibrated and finds use in a laboratory for highly precise and important scientific work.

Except that day, the lab tech decides to substitute a power cord for another. If you are telling me that a power cord can make a difference in audio, then it can make a difference with an electronic scale...

Circuits are different but same "type" of components inside the electronic scale as audio. Microchips, resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.

The scale is then used to measure precisely the amount of whatever the chemist is working on to come up with a life saving vaccine...

The scale shows him something other than what it was calibrated for because the power cord is different.

Can one imagine this scenario? How would any scientific standard or unit be kept if after calibrating with one power cord, the other would change that unit?

How does any of this fit into any technology that we have accomplished with precise measurements since electricity was invented and the first power cord got the juice flowing?

Will we ever reach mars or the moon if we keep switching power cords?

You will still say that if we cannot measure a power cord, it still makes a difference. It is no different than the flat earth society claiming that no matter what evidence is presented, the earth is still flat. One group "hears" the difference and the other "sees" the flat horizon.

By the way, I worked in and invested into the industry where the greatest minds design equipment that treats and saves lives. That multi-million dollar diagnostic and treatment equipment is used all over the world.

At no point in any of the rational conversations with the engineers of these global leaders of medical equipment over the 20 years, have I ever heard any of them agree with my statements about power cords or cables in general. Yes, I have asked... :rolleyes: When one is buying equipment costing millions of dollars, a fancy power cord would be the least of their concerns if they improved anything.
 
^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
 
mep said:
^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
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Shunyata can sell them anywhere they want. I even have one in my system. An audiophile doctor can also believe what he wants and if his malpractice insurance covers non-standard equipment in a hospital setting...

That does not negate anything I have said earlier.

If a scientist is running spectroscopy ( the study of the interaction between matter and electromagnetic radiation as a function of the wavelength or frequency of the radiation) and a different power cord gets him a different result, we would be in trouble...
 
Mike Lavigne said:
Kingrex said:
i do have a separate ground rod for my barn Equi=tech 10WQ isolation transformer. but it is a separate building 75 feet away from my home. my Electrical Contractor who did the install said it was proper code since it was a separate building. the regular 'dirty power' 100 amp panel in my barn for lights and HVAC does not have a separate ground rod.
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Correct. NEC requires a ground rod be added for an outbuilding subpanel. But that geound rod is tied to the ground bus in the panel that goes back to the primary bonding and grounding at the service.

My concern is audiophile who take the ground from their audio receptacle at the rack and do not tie it to the branch circuit ground. They instead pull a single wire out of the box, put a hole in the side of their house and take that wire to a ground rod. That is how kids, and pets die. As well as the meter reader or Concast tech.
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TheOctopus said:
I am sorry, I did not understand your point at all. In the typical audiophile fashion, the conversation turns to that which is unmeasurable...

I'll ask you to imagine a high precision electronic scale that is calibrated and finds use in a laboratory for highly precise and important scientific work.

Except that day, the lab tech decides to substitute a power cord for another. If you are telling me that a power cord can make a difference in audio, then it can make a difference with an electronic scale...

Circuits are different but same "type" of components inside the electronic scale as audio. Microchips, resistors, capacitors, inductors, etc.

The scale is then used to measure precisely the amount of whatever the chemist is working on to come up with a life saving vaccine...

The scale shows him something other than what it was calibrated for because the power cord is different.

Can one imagine this scenario? How would any scientific standard or unit be kept if after calibrating with one power cord, the other would change that unit?

How does any of this fit into any technology that we have accomplished with precise measurements since electricity was invented and the first power cord got the juice flowing?

Will we ever reach mars or the moon if we keep switching power cords?

You will still say that if we cannot measure a power cord, it still makes a difference. It is no different than the flat earth society claiming that no matter what evidence is presented, the earth is still flat. One group "hears" the difference and the other "sees" the flat horizon.

By the way, I worked in and invested into the industry where the greatest minds design equipment that treats and saves lives. That multi-million dollar diagnostic and treatment equipment is used all over the world.

At no point in any of the rational conversations with the engineers of these global leaders of medical equipment over the 20 years, have I ever heard any of them agree with my statements about power cords or cables in general. Yes, I have asked... :rolleyes: When one is buying equipment costing millions of dollars, a fancy power cord would be the least of their concerns if they improved anything.
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I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.
 
mep said:
^I thought Shunyata was selling their power cords into the medical imaging community.
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They developed a separate line for the medical community, and incorporated the technology into their audio cables. They explained all this on their web site, but I haven't checked lately.

It was interesting. They showed medical equipment measurements with stock power cords, and then with the Shunyata power cords. The background electrical noise dropped and the medical measurements were clearer and more precise at lower levels.
 
Kingrex said:
I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.
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Are you serious?
 
Mike Lavigne said:
well.......maybe simplify and clarify your point......
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I thought I was very clear. There are standards and calibrations for all kinds of equipment as well as laboratories and government labs that certify things. If a power cord made a difference, calibration or standardization for scientific work would be next to impossible. I don't think it can get any simpler than that? If a scale tells you your 1 LB weight is not 1 LB anymore because the "other" power cord is making it say so, we are all in trouble.
 
Kingrex said:
I would say that piece of scientific equipment was designed to operate on a perfect 60 herts sine wave at 120 volts. The instrument in a hospital environment with all sorts of light, motors, medical devices etc all back polluting DC and harmonics onto the power grid have created a situation where that medical device is now operating in an environment where the voltage fluctuates and the sine wave is distorted. The new power cord and a Denali are trying to get the power back to lab grade quality which is what the gear was designed to operate properly under. Without the power conditioner and cord, you are correct, the medical equipment might be giving inaccurate information.
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Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?
 
So much said -so little agreement :wacko:
 

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TheOctopus said:
I thought I was very clear. There are standards and calibrations for all kinds of equipment as well as laboratories and government labs that certify things. If a power cord made a difference, calibration or standardization for scientific work would be next to impossible. I don't think it can get any simpler than that? If a scale tells you your 1 LB weight is not 1 LB anymore because the "other" power cord is making it say so, we are all in trouble.
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we are not reading a scale. or listening to numbers.

at least i am not doing either one. if that is what you like to do, then by all means enjoy it. i'm going to listen to music.

i have no illusions that my words are going to change any objectivist's mind.
 
TheOctopus said:
Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?
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Nope they do relay on some of these requirements. IEC 60601-1-2 EMC for Medical Devices: EN/IEC 60601-1-2, 4th Edition - Medical Design Briefs

Just a sample of what medical equipment goes through to ensure patients safety and equipment performance.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
we are not reading a scale. or listening to numbers.

at least i am not doing either one. if that is what you like to do, then by all means enjoy it. i'm going to listen to music.

i have no illusions that my words are going to change any objectivist's mind.
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Judging by the participation in the "what are you listening to thread" I am doing a hell of a lot more listening than others.

I am fortunate to have freedom to do so all day long and the music is ON all day long. Power cords do not change my enjoyment one bit one way or the other.

I like to keep things logical and rational and because I also have a background in electronics.

I spent a few decades in the medical field with diagnostic equipment such as MRI, CAT scan, Positron Emission Tomography, Ultrasound and was even around Radiation Therapy equipment. Besides using the equipment and understanding the theory and how things work (because of the electronic background as well as medical diagnostics) I was also involved with setting up a state of the art free-standing facility that had all the top notch equipment. As such, I spend a great deal talking with representatives from companies all over the world, both equipment and radiology related PACS (picture archiving and communication system).

Meeting with the top representatives and field engineers from Siemens, Toshiba, Hitachi, GE Medical. Over the many years, occasionally the topic of high end audio would come up....

Who do you think is innovating and at the forefront of technology? Audio manufacturers peddling power conditioners and DACs or medical companies?

Do you have an idea what an MRI machine consists of? You want to talk about radio transmission, cryogens, gradient coils, superconductors, nuclear magnetic resonance? This is not an overpriced DAC we are talking about here but a state of the art $2M machine with devices in some cases taking up additional rooms. State of the art DACs included.

As I already mentioned, these conversations would simply make any of the engineers smirk.

Here is a very simple video from a guy who understands the basics at least. There is nothing in this video to debate or debunk. It is this video vs that which is cannot be measured and trust your own ears philosophy. Just because he doesn't see value or agree with power cords, does not make him wrong and an audiophile trusting what he thinks is good memory and ears right... Do Audiophile Power Cables Make A Difference? - YouTube
 
CPP said:
Nope they do relay on some of these requirements. IEC 60601-1-2 EMC for Medical Devices: EN/IEC 60601-1-2, 4th Edition - Medical Design Briefs

Just a sample of what medical equipment goes through to ensure patients safety and equipment performance.
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And in that whole article, did you see anything even remotely mentioned as to be using some exotic power cords or power conditioners? Would that be even logical that medical equipment be relying on a specific aftermarket power cord? Why "that one" and "not the other" then?

The article talks about the equipment itself meeting safety specs. In fact, the equipment has to be designed as to be "immune" to all the things we are discussing. :D

Some of the equipment is DC (battery) operated even so there is really no place for a power cord in that equation.
 
Having said all that, here is what I do believe. I believe that we cannot unhear that which we see.. We see a nice power cord and the expectations are high. You will hear what you are expecting to hear. If you don't right away, it will need a break in period. Then listen to "other" recordings... yep, that's better. Ask on the forums, get confirmation bias. Between all that, of course it will sound different and the mind will be convinced. How is that any different than reality? It becomes reality and does it even matter whether it was real or not? What power conditioners and power cords do is buy an "audiophile peace of mind". Yep, guilty myself over the years.
 
TheOctopus said:
Do you think robotic surgery equipment that can peel the skin off a grape and suture it back on is relying on anything but precise and clean power that is already built into it or does it need an XYZ power cord to do it?
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I wired the surgery rooms and worked on the distribution switchgear at the University of Washington Medical Pavilion. I would say no. They do not have any specialied filtration systems so to speak. In each surgery room the power from the main switchgear goes to a battery UPS switchboard. From there it is fed to a panel at each surgery room with a isolation transformer. Its not a very sophisticated system.

And the fact that hospitals are purchasing the Shunyata equipment tells the whole story. Maybe you should get on the phone and start calling hospitals and labs. Explain who you are and advise them they are being fleeced. That the improved performance they are realizing is subliminal. They want it to be better so it appears so when its really is not.

It is possible things have changed. 5 years ago when I was bidding and PM electrical distribution packages for hospitals and data centers for Square D, the emphisis was on uninterrupted power and back up. As well as grounding. I did not see any radical breakthrough technology to quote on the blueprints. It was a pretty standard package.
 
I also wired the entire Radiation Oncology wing at Overlake hospital. That was even more basic. A small distribution sub switchboard at the front end with branches to subpanels at the linear accelerators, exam and prep rooms. Maybe the equipment they connect up has filters built in. But again, these hospitals are purchasing the equipment from Shunyata for a reason.
 
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