Another Roon Heavy Handed Policy

No idea what Post #31 is as I have no easy way of knowing which it is on my phone.(I am not counting posts)

My input was in response to being accused of throwing out a rumor in an earlier post. I just wanted to confirm what I had heard was indeed true and not a rumor.

They must have a big room somewhere in NY where they test/certify products.
 
If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.
 
NekoAudio said:
If Roon does respond to the unauthorized workarounds to Roon Certification, which they kind of need to do, I expect it to increase costs and complexity for the legitimate authorized manufacturers and to also possibly create problems that may result in older devices becoming unsupported or requiring firmware updates. If Roon fails to address this, their ecosystem will be harmed.

I feel compelled to call this out so that people understand there can be significant negatives due to the creation of unauthorized solutions.
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Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:

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Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
crwilli said:
No idea what Post #31 is as I have no easy way of knowing which it is on my phone.(I am not counting posts)
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That is a public list of devices that Roon keeps after certification, in support of (not against) what you said.
 
If these hacks require knowledge of how RAAT operates that is embedded in the Roon-licensed SDK then by definition it is theft of intellectual property. Very cut and dried. It will be very interesting to see what Roon’s response will be.
 
To me (non Roon subscriber and no real interest in it - have seen and heard it and the interface is great) it seems to remind me what THX did. It was a bunch of specs which were required for certification. Onkyo got tired of it and then released receivers with 'Re EQ' (Cinema Re-Equalization) which did substantially the same thing. If they continue on their course and tighten things up, I think you'll eventually see a company or two do their own testing. If it happens with enough companies doing that, it won't be good for Roon at the end of the day. I think they need to take a step back and think of it from the perspective of manuafacturers and dealers.
 
Mike said:
Yup. It’s a mess. You have clients who think they have bought a fully Roon certified solution and we (dealers & customers) are all learning at the same time:

Ahhh...thank goodness for the great and free Lumin app (and Aurender app too!)
Click to expand...

Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong :)).

However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage of claiming Roon compatibility. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???
 
Randy Myers said:
Well it pretty much proves that Roon is at the pinnacle when everyone wants to have the Roon logo on their products. That alone speaks volumes. Also knowing that Roon has always been willing to work with manufactures to me this sounds like manufactures either being cheap or lazy but then trying to take advantage of what Roon has built.

If the other apps were as good then knowing how some people are they would be trying to steal them also... or trying to use it with their products. I could be wrong but are not the Lumin app and Aurender app for their specific hardware? Do people hack them to use them with other hardware? I would be surprised if they do, but I assume they don't (and since I have no knowledge in that I could be wrong :)).

However, any hack on any persons or companies intellectual property is wrong and honestly illegal. If a company wants the benefits of being Roon compatible then they are required to get certified. Roon does this for customer protection. If the company does't want to do this they have no right to try to gain the advantage. It is the manufactures that are in the wrong, not Roon. Yes, as a customer you feel you should get what you paid for. Being able to use Roon with the product that you purchased believing it was Roon certified. Not getting that feels like you have been cheated and rightfully so. But be angry at the correct parties that are at fault and that is not Roon.

Any hack is illegal and that alone would make me never again consider a product by a company that is willing to do this. They have proved themselves to being willing to cut corners and do unethical things. What would make me think they would not do the same in other areas in their manufacturing... lets say electrical safety regulations???
Click to expand...

The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
 
Mike said:
The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Ok, there are a few companies using the Lumin app. Thanks for the info. So Roon may have a long road ahead protecting their intellectual property. It is too bad and we all know who will actually pay for it.

If it were not for all of these scum bag pieces of shit trying to steal everything there would not be need for Roon and other companies to go to extra steps and expenses. We would also not need virus scanners, malware protection, constant updates... on and on and on. Sitting by and acting like it is ok is not good. Actually supporting these assholes by using their products is a lot worse, and these "customers", if they know it is hacked are culpable.

We all pay for it; don't kid yourselves thinking we don't. I use legal copies of any software I use, and anybody who doesn't is part of the problem... I have some choice words for them that I will not print here.
 
this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.


so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

and, as they say: therein lies the rub. ;):D
_________________________

as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

and, if nothing else you have to admire this.
 
Mike said:
The Lumin app can be used by many other vendors FOR FREE. Linn folks have abandoned the Linn app and now use the Lumin app as an example. Esoteric licensed with the good folks at Lumin for Lumin to make them an Esoteric version of the Lumin app.

Agreed on the Roon app. They should pay to use it. But if you look at the hundreds and hundreds of “lesser known” brands out there, many from over seas, it’s going to be a challenge for the folks at Roon. The game of whack-a-mole comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t that also be true for Lumin with their app being available to 3rd parties?
 
aKnyght said:
this has turned into a quite an interesting thread and i am really enjoying the discussion of roon's business model. here is my armchair, big-picture take:

in the audiophile / high-end segment of the market roon has proven to be an extraordinarily disruptive company… with a roon subscription it is no longer a necessity for this market segment to adhere to any specific topology or to buy specialized audio equipment in order to play their locally stored or streamed music files... it is now a choice.

basically, for $9.99 per month roon has provided subscribers the freedom to design and configure their file-based, digital back-end in any fashion that makes sense for them. these subscriber solutions can range from costless by simply installing roon on an existing computer and pointing it to a playback endpoint to costing many multiples of $10k by opting for bespoke servers, high-end streamers/transports, etc.

furthermore, in creating a high-quality product with a great UI and UX they are the market leader and the de-facto go-to software — their brand awareness and recognition are high. realistically, any company wishing to sell digital playback hardware in meaningful unit quantities absolutely must take roon into account. and, for those companies wishing to have networked products this means becoming roon-certified. sure, its a PINTA and takes time + resources to do it right and, thereby, do right by their own customers.


so, roon is in a position to significantly influence not only the market for playback software but, more importantly for the discussion here, the market for playback hardware. from this perspective, it is easy to understand the discomfort of the entire hardware manufacturing/distribution chain. simply put, roon in empowering their customers has altered the trajectory of this market segment and, thereby, its economics …no wonder they are now a target.

and, as they say: therein lies the rub. ;):D
_________________________

as some what of an aside: being someone knowledgeable about software development and having been involved in the ecosystem of early-stage, startup companies, roon is the poster-child for how to do things right. from identifying a large addressable market to executing on a plan to monetize the opportunity to being capital efficient to building market share and brand recognition to almost any metric relevant to the success of a start-up they have succeeded… wildly.

their masterstroke was the release of ROCK which opened an almost limitless number of hardware options for roon subscribers. i view it as being as important to roon as was apple's decision in the early days of the iPhone to open up app development to third party companies and provide them with an SDK to build apps.

and, if nothing else you have to admire this.
Click to expand...


I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.

Initially offering the lifetime subscription to raise necessary start up capital, knowing full well that they were not wanting to do lifetime subs for the long haul. This is primarily the reason they raised the lifetime rate and will eventually eliminate it entirely (this was straight from one of the founders to me personally). They have done well and offer and excellent product that most people can use without issues. They are also attempting to make sure that all customers can use it. Their reasoning is very sound.

The Apple example I guess is pertinent here even though I am not an Apple fan. Yes they allow and encourage third party development of apps, but remember also that any of those apps can only be sold in the Apple App Store and that Apple gets a relatively large percentage. Not unlike manufactures wanting to be part of the Roon eco system and gaining all of the advantageous that go with it. It does cost to be part of and gain advantages from the Roon environment. And that is only fair.
 
We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Randy Myers said:
I totally agree, but also remember they did not just jump into the market. They started by developing the Sooloos system for Meridian. After they fulfilled their contract with Meridian they went their separate way and started developing Roon. So they were not new comers to the industry.
Click to expand...

sure, and microsoft (to use a perhaps more palatable computer analogy) was not the first operating system, but they did create software that could run on many different computers (i.e. the "ibm clones") ...my point is that companies that democratize their markets and disrupt entrenched business models and companies are usually the winners. hence, all the current industry ajida.

with respect to ROCK, i don't think it's full impact has yet to be felt. my opinion is that ROCK opens up the avenue for sound quality concerned consumers to entirely bypass audiophile, high-end computer and networking hardware in favor of a now vastly larger universe of consumer grade products connected by fiber ethernet or an equivalent such as the MSB pro-ISL module.

if one really wants to do a fair test of this theory, take a dac which has fiber input such as a lumin x1 or an MSB w/ pro-ISL and then feed it the exact same digital stream (no hardware or software specific upsampling, DSP, etc) from front ends that range from takio all the way down to a raspbery-Pi and then see if you can tell the difference. if you do hear one, it is in your head not your ears. think about it ...how would it be possible for a dac to convert the exact same digital stream, delivered free of all upstream electrical noise differently?

ymmv, but i am happy to take all that dough saved on an audiophile upstream digital infrastructure and spend it on speakers, an amplifier or even a killer dinette set. herein lies the real value proposition of roon.

:):D
 
Mike said:
We should start learning tomorrow if people log in here to say their DAC or streamer isn’t working.
Click to expand...

given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

:D
 
aKnyght said:
given that 1) roon announced this new policy with very short effect and 2) that roon has communicated the underlying issue with manufacturers for over a year, whom should they see about their now non-functioning networked roon endpoint?

like you -- can't wait to see the show!!

:D
Click to expand...

They should go straight to the manufacturer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Agreed, I believe it is a manufactures issue, not Roon. It is not like Roon has hidden any of this to the manufactures.
 
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