Analog System Questions

D

Dizzie

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Joined
Oct 14, 2013
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Sacramento
This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched. :sigh:
 
Looks like you have a good set up to, me. I'm not sure what the issue might be. I do know that some older titles just weren't produced well.

Though your LP's may be old some of them could be very good pressings. Names really escape me sometimes, there's that website where the guy buys up all of the same titles and ranks them, some may be anewer stamp than others.
 
I assume the dealer did cartridge overhang, alignment, and tracking force. But did he make any comments or calibration about azimuth (phase / crosstalk), or have any comments about how it sounded after he set everything up?

I don't think buying modern pressings would matter, unless you are typically listening to recent music on your digital setup and that's your reference point. What digital setup you're comparing it to?
 
NekoAudio said:
I assume the dealer did cartridge overhang, alignment, and tracking force. But did he make any comments or calibration about azimuth (phase / crosstalk), or have any comments about how it sounded after he set everything up?

I don't think buying modern pressings would matter, unless you are typically listening to recent music on your digital setup and that's your reference point. What digital setup you're comparing it to?
Click to expand...

I am not sure what the dealer did. His only comments were I needed to buy new vinyl. At the time I was using the phono input of an integrated amp. I thought that might be a limiting factor so I purchased the Zesto.

My specific digital components are irrelevant. I do not need to compare my analog system to my digital system to know the analog system sucks in a major way.
 
Dizzie said:
I am not sure what the dealer did.
Click to expand...

that tells me right there you don't belong in analog. Move along to digital, don't look back and while you're at it change up the whiskey you drink as well ....... :thumbsup:
 
Dizzie said:
This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched. :sigh:
Click to expand...


Your post is not at all bizarre. It’s a tough decision to make as there are a lot more things involved with vinyl playback than fidelity.

As I improved my vinyl and digital systems they began to sound more and more alike.
My best sources are still vinyl but digital versions sound better on many of the vinyl titles I own.
If I didn’t already own a lot of records I’m not sure I’d get into it.

So I’m not an unrecoverable vinyl nutjob.

You’ve got a good setup. Great phono stage. Great turntable. The cartridge is the weak link. This is my opinion of course, but I’ve never liked the inexpensive Ortofon cartridges.

So if you are at a crossroads and want to throw another $2k to $3k at your vinyl system you may get a result that pleases you. Or not. That’s the risk. You’ve already said you don’t wan’t to do that, so I get it.

Or you can try for another setup - because there are a lot of levers to pull in setup that impact the overall sound. The setup would include geometry, VTF, VTA, Azimuth, and anti-skate. Ideally it would be done in your home. I would not assume your dealer knows what they are doing. They may, or may not. It’s a crap shoot and fewer and fewer people truly know how to set up a high end turntable.

Vinyl setup is an art that few have mastered.

Maybe your dealer can provide a demo for you.

At any rate good luck, you’re in a tough spot and there is no right answer.
 
Diz, i reread your post twice and I still dont exacly know what you are asking, I think your analog rig is great as it is. MM carts can be a little dark sounding and lack resolution and sparkle up top. Going to a MC might be the revelation your'e looking for.
 
Dizzie said:
This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched. :sigh:
Click to expand...


An interesting dilemma you have. If I understand you correctly, you purchased a TT and now own a lot of vinyl. However, now you realize that your vinyl sounds "horrible" compared to the sound of your digital set up.

I can relate to you in several ways. I also own a VPI turntable (Classic) and have a fairly good size LP collection.

However, today, despite the fact that I still have hundreds of LPs and Cds, I play NO Cds and only occasionally listen to (select) LPs.

The reason is streaming. I subscribed to a music service that has 98% of my CD and LP collection.

I also use Roon. With Roon, I "tagged" all of the LPs and CDs in my collection. If a CD was not available via subscription, I ripped it and added it to my library. That means that if today I decide to listen to "my LP Collection" or "my CD Collection" I can immediately find them and listen to them without moving from my chair. The very few LPs from my collection that are not available via the music subscription, I can listen to with my TT.

That said, sometimes I just feel like listening to analog for different reasons: nostalgia, memories, or just to hear the "analog sound" which includes the clicks and pops that you talked about. But I am fully aware that TODAY in terms of sonics, analog cannot touch digital certainly not in the money range (IF AT ALL) that you are talking about.
 
Reading the replies and your post again I agree the cartridge is the weak link. You have a stellar phono stage and table. I like Ortofon but you should be using the 2nd tier MC carts. I think the Bronze used to be around $1800 but I'm sure is higher now. For more excitement go to the Black. Maybe your dealer would be willing to bring a couple carts over for audition. The 2m is a decent cart but not on par with the rest of your analogue rig.
 
Dizzie,

Vinyl playback is a slog and lots of work to get right or as right as you can get it. If you're not willing (or don't know how) to do your own setup/tweaking for adjustments maybe it is time to walk away. Seems like maybe the dealer-cart-setup is the suspect here at play? Confirming for yourself (and not taking a dealer for their word) that tracking weight, azimuth, antiskate and SRA/VTA are correct is about the only way to know for sure. If these adjustments are dialed in and the sound is still not to your liking then yeah, step away.

In my experience, adding a bit more tracking weight (up to +.5g) and adjusting the stylus rake angle usually creates the most change in sonic signature of a vinyl playback system. In particular, if you can easily adjust the SRA via VTA you can tune the sound from thin and anemic to thick and fat. Finding the middle is the key.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do and keep enjoying the music with or without the vinyl.

Mike
 
One thing is easy to check. Get a modern pressing and try it.
Ortofon Bronze series cartridges have a reputation for being soft and warm like Cardas cable. I have a Cadenza Bronze in reserve. It's great for poorly recorded or studio music but for live or well recorded I found it a poor choice. If your inner detail is masked, the Bronze is contributing. If your VPI is a unipivot double check everything, especially if you have adjusted anything, even VTF or VTA. I lived with one for 25 years. They can sound amazing but they can easily drift and sound dead as a door nail too.
 
I agree with others here in that I believe your weakest link is the cartridge. What I experienced was that until I got to a certain point on my MC cartridge my analog rig just didn't engage me. However once I found a great analog dealer and listening to a truly great cartridge on a great table there was no going back. At this point my analog front end is my preferred listening source generally but as always the mastering is really important and I have CD's that sound better than the vinyl when the vinyl mastering was more of an afterthought. Good luck but if you are trying to stay within a lower budget on the analog side and you have a really good digital front end then you may want to consider sticking to digital ... that can be really good too! Just do whatever you enjoy most!

George
 
Ditto on the comments about the cartridge being the weakest link. The VPI Prime and the Zesto Andros 1.2 are very good. There are several good cartridge options in the $1K range that would provide you better dynamics and more top end: Ortofon 2M Black LVB; Dynavector DV-20X2L; Soundsmith Carmen MK2… to mention just a few.

Hope this helps.
 
Dizzie said:
I am not sure what the dealer did.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess it is possible the dealer did not really do any cartridge setup / calibration. Although my assumption would be it was done at setup time since you mentioned they are an experienced turntable dealer. You could ask what steps they took?

Like others said, the 2M Bronze might not be the sound character you're looking for, but I don't really think the 2M Bronze would translate into a 2-dimensional presentation that fails to reproduce instrument timbre.
 
Good point, his rig is certainly ready for some nice carts but the 2mBronze shouldn't sound terrible, it's the next step down from, the Black.
NekoAudio said:
Well, I guess it is possible the dealer did not really do any cartridge setup / calibration. Although my assumption would be it was done at setup time since you mentioned they are an experienced turntable dealer. You could ask what steps they took?

Like others said, the 2M Bronze might not be the sound character you're looking for, but I don't really think the 2M Bronze would translate into a 2-dimensional presentation that fails to reproduce instrument timbre.
Click to expand...
 
That's all solid analog gear. I'm a huge vinyl-head, but I can still enjoy even a cheap Fluance RT85 with 2M Blue (below the Bronze) without perceiving "2D" sound or any other such severe deficiencies. It makes me suspect either there's something wrong with the setup or you really don't have a predilection for analog! But the problem is definitely NOT any of those components individually. I guess the usual big variable with vinyl is to look at feedback issues and isolation - it can be a challenge when in proximity to big speakers. Good headphones (like Sennheiser HD600) can be a good tool for diagnosing & eliminating this variable. Your dealer needs to step up here!! Or any local analog buddies.
 
Also: your Zesto uses an internal SUT for the MC setup and that can cause problems for some MC cartidge and ALL MM cartridges (like your Bronze). Really make sure that is bypassed in your setup! MM mode only for the Bronze. It also needs to see a 47K ohm input impedance. I've had a few "oops" moments in my own system from improper SUT configurations. I'm a huge fan of SUTs for MC cartridges but they can go very wrong real quick if you're not careful :)
 
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed. The dealer I used before is several hours away through nasty traffic which I avoid to the max. I did contact him for suggestions. Sometimes he is in my area.

I received an unexpectedly generous offer for my used vinyl but parting with it is still difficult. Used equipment I have for sale is not selling so I am not anxious to jump in with analog equipment to sell also. To further complicate matters I do not have room for my phono pre and DAC in my rack at the same time so I have to periodically swap from vinyl to digital.
 
Dizzie said:
You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.
 
What do you have for sale?

I'm not sure what's going on I've had my ML 532h for sale for about 2 months.

Dizzie said:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed. The dealer I used before is several hours away through nasty traffic which I avoid to the max. I did contact him for suggestions. Sometimes he is in my area.

I received an unexpectedly generous offer for my used vinyl but parting with it is still difficult. Used equipment I have for sale is not selling so I am not anxious to jump in with analog equipment to sell also. To further complicate matters I do not have room for my phono pre and DAC in my rack at the same time so I have to periodically swap from vinyl to digital.
Click to expand...
 
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