Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

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AJ Soundfield said:
... Vinyl sounds zero like the real thing, unless the "real thing" reference is the vinyl (a distinct possibility!)....
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That is simply absurd. If playing a vinyl record sounded nothing like ("zero" like) the real thing, then we would not be able to tell that we were listening to a recording of a piano being played, let alone the type of piano, or that it was a Beethoven sonata and not some dog barking. And yet, many people listen to good vinyl systems and think to themselves "wow", this is amazing. Do they think they are listening to a popcorn machine or something, or are they hearing something even more alien?

How could Mike sell any turntables to anyone if vinyl actually sounded zero like the real thing? He could sell them coffee machines which also sound nothing like real instruments and voices. For an objective, fact-based, measurement verification kind of guy, you are not being very accurate with your statements.
 
PeterA said:
That is simply absurd.
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So you and others can't tell the difference between a vinyl record and a live symphony? Wow.
A live symphony to your and other ears, have surface noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass, degradation each play, tracking issues, etc, etc?
Which orchestra is this?

PeterA said:
And yet, many people listen to good vinyl systems and think to themselves "wow", this is amazing.
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How many are comparing against the real thing? Please state the source of your numbers and the conditions of the comparison, thanks.
 
PeterA said:
How could Mike sell any turntables to anyone if vinyl actually sounded zero like the real thing?
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Because a very few people actually like hearing the sound of a turntable. Simple preference that type archaic stereophony .
 
I sometimes wonder if the recent "resurgence" of vinyl hasn't lead to some misapprehension.

https://www.statista.com/chart/7699/lp-sales-in-the-united-states/

According to Nielsen’s 2017 year-end music report, LPs accounted for no more (but also no less) than 8.5 percent of album sales in the United States. When accounting for streaming and downloads of single tracks, that number drops to 2.5 percent of total music consumption
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AJ Soundfield said:
So you and others can't tell the difference between a vinyl record and a live symphony? Wow.
A live symphony to your and other ears, have surface noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass, degradation each play, tracking issues, etc, etc?
Which orchestra is this?


How many are comparing against the real thing? Please state the source of your numbers and the conditions of the comparison, thanks.
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No, of course reproduced music, either analog or digital, does not sound EXACTLY like a live symphony. Where did I write that I could not tell the difference?I'm objecting to your statement that vinyl sounds "ZERO" like the real thing. That would mean that we could not even recognize that we are listening to the reproduction of a piano, for instance, instead of a violin, or motorcycle, or loud noise. Zero means zero. That is why I think your statement is absurd.



I can tell the difference, and vinyl is flawed. That is not the same as saying it is zero like the real thing. We can argue just how much it is like the real thing, but that would not be fun. You are saying "zero". I am saying it sounds similar in many ways, but certainly not the same. In other words, more than "zero". That you even think I wrote that I can't tell the difference is also absurd.

The four people in my Boston area audio group all listen to live symphonic music on a regular basis. They don't think their systems sound identical to the real thing. Perhaps not even that close. However, they certainly don't think vinyl sounds "zero" like the real thing. I happen to think vinyl on these systems sounds more like the real thing than does their digital. I don't own a digital source. So how many? I don't know. All four of the guys in my audio group listen and compare to the real thing. That means 100% of our small group. And some friends who are not in our group also listen to the real thing. They too think that my vinyl system sounds something like the real music they hear. They recognize piano, violin, a female voice. If it was zero, they would never know what the recording is trying to represent.

Does a moving image on a TV look "zero" like the real thing?
 
PeterA said:
I happen to think vinyl on these systems sounds more like the real thing than does their digital.
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Interesting. Is the comparison done as I stated earlier for validity, vinyl>dual out phono pre>direct through 1 input of preamp, then also through an ADA loop>2 input of pre, level matched and then instantaneously compared? So every bit of sound, even clicks, pops, surface noise, crosstalk, everything is coming through real time and heard?
If not, please say how this vinyl vs digital comparison is being done, thanks.

PeterA said:
All four of the guys in my audio group listen and compare to the real thing.
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Yes, that is a pretty small sample size. Any members of BAS?
 
AJ Soundfield said:
That's the paradox. Vinyl sounds zero like the real thing, unless the "real thing" reference is the vinyl (a distinct possibility!). The real thing doesn't have surface noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass, degradation each play, tracking issues, etc, etc.
Zero serious research (>19th century) into perceptual recreation (and there is a lot of that going on outside the audiophile echo chamber) of the real thing involves anything remotely like vinyl. Statements of such would illicit howls of laughter as mentioned by Holt.
Biggest issue as you note might be lack of exposure to outside the chamber systems, like this http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm
Heck, some of these issues has been know since the 1930s Bell Labs (yes, that Bell Labs that gave us Nyquist et al).
I think it really comes down to dichotomy Holt very aptly describes.
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vinyl Has more than enough dynamics, maybe you are running out of xmax playing vinyl , hence the limited dynamics you are experiencing ..

Again there is nothing about vinyl LP which limits its ability to reproduce audio at the highest level, you just have a preference for digital it is what you like..
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Interesting. Is the comparison done as I stated earlier for validity, vinyl>dual out phono pre>direct through 1 input of preamp, then also through an ADA loop>2 input of pre, level matched and then instantaneously compared? So every bit of sound, even clicks, pops, surface noise, crosstalk, everything is coming through real time and heard?
If not, please say how this vinyl vs digital comparison is being done, thanks.


Yes, that is a pretty small sample size. Any members of BAS?
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Is the real thing Digital ..?

You should Use your other foot now , give the left one a rest , too many holes now ..


:)
 
PeterA said:
That is simply absurd. If playing a vinyl record sounded nothing like ("zero" like) the real thing, then we would not be able to tell that we were listening to a recording of a piano being played, let alone the type of piano, or that it was a Beethoven sonata and not some dog barking. And yet, many people listen to good vinyl systems and think to themselves "wow", this is amazing. Do they think they are listening to a popcorn machine or something, or are they hearing something even more alien?

How could Mike sell any turntables to anyone if vinyl actually sounded zero like the real thing? He could sell them coffee machines which also sound nothing like real instruments and voices. For an objective, fact-based, measurement verification kind of guy, you are not being very accurate with your statements.
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Fact based ..? :)
 
a.wayne said:
vinyl Has more than enough dynamics
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That is an opinion free of objective facts and easily falsified. Dynamic range is a measured metric, not an opinion.

a.wayne said:
Again there is nothing about vinyl LP which limits its ability to reproduce audio at the "highest level"
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Another opinion. Seeing a trend....:)
If the "highest level" is noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, crosstalk, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass archaic stereo, sure.
 
Jim Smith said:
Agreed.

Having never heard a vinyl playback rig - no matter how expensive - performing at it's full potential - in hundreds of high end audio systems, whether owned by audiophiles, reviewers or dealers, I have always privately wondered why the owner persists.

In most every instance (assuming basics such as location & mechanical set-up are good), about an hour's worth or so of adjustment & listening could easily address most of the issues, and take it to a much higher level.

All too often, a huge waste of money, because the potential is never reached.

IMO, of course.

Also, I'm NOT saying that there aren't some vinyl playback rigs that sound awesome, performing to their full potential. I simply have never encountered one in the hundreds of occasions listed above.

In those cases, digital done right makes more sense. Again, IMO.
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Jim,

How many digital systems have you heard sound right , as i very rarely hear systems which sound to their full potential, analog or digital without work ...
 
a.wayne said:
Jim,

How many digital systems have you heard sound right , as i very rarely hear systems which sound to their full potential, analog or digital without work ...
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Mr Wayne, how many digital PSR, WFS, etc virtual reality mch systems have you experienced?
 
AJ Soundfield said:
That is an opinion free of objective facts and easily falsified. Dynamic range is a measured metric, not an opinion.


Another opinion. Seeing a trend....:)
If the "highest level" is noise, clicks, pops, wow and flutter, rumble, crosstalk, groove distortions, limited dynamic range, poor deep bass archaic stereo, sure.
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I guess you figured repeating circle jargon gets you off . :)

vinyl is capable of at least 60 dB of dynamic range , please advise how anyone here, audio system would be limited by this ..
 
Mike said:
Possibly, but other albums would likely exhibit the same behavior. This sounds like a bad pressing x 4.

I’m not saying one is better than the other, Lord knows Digital has its own demons. But $50 noisy pressings that are also punched off center drive me nuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Can believe that , stamping and pressing is an art to make right , most doing it today have limited experience ..
 
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