A good read: CD vs Vinyl

Al M. said:
The necessary dynamic compression of the high frequencies needed to make a vinyl record can produce the sensation of extra 'air'.

***

Again, I am not knocking vinyl, neither here nor in my previous post. In fact, while I don't have a record player at home myself, I am a fan of great vinyl that I hear elsewhere and in some aspects it is still a benchmark against which the audio quality of CD should be judged. However, I am wary of exuberant defenses of vinyl that do not stand up to scrutiny.
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We don't apply any dynamic compression at high frequencies; the idea that this is 'needed' is a myth (they are handy to prevent accidents from causing trouble); that is why high frequency limiters were optional when outfitting an LP mastering installation. The bandwidth on the LP is limited to whatever is in the source, at least with current technology.

In the case of either the LP or the CD, the actual real limitations lie at the feet of the producer. If there is an expectation that the recording is going to be played in a car, then there will be compression (we usually insist on the pre-mastered files so DSP compression has not been applied); if the producer does not want spend the $$$ on the LP mastering, then its likely that the LP source will see a bit of compression and limiting so as to limit the billable hours.
 
Phono stage overload and recovery on ticks and pops is well known and any good phono stage would have been designed to accomodate for this and yes lesser ones do suffer from dynamic instability if not done correctly..

As to "brightness" this is usually associated with anomalies in the 3-7k range and not in the 18-30K range, anything above 14 K will very rarely ever be perceived as brightness , but will tend to be accepted as having more "air " and detail than Brightness ..

An 18K cutoff on digital ( 44/16) mixes makes sense , but in doing so one has to worry about phase shift in the critical audio range vs vinyl, which can easily exceed 20K ....


IMO, none are mutually exclusive , nor should they be , analog Vinyl for sound and Digital for convenience works for me ..



Regards
 
Al M. said:
This is a misleading statement. While LP does have a high bandwidth (and the guding signal for quadraphonic sound back in the day was even around 45 kHz or so, if I remember correctly), the frequency representation is not linear. Many LP's have measurable roll-off in the audible range below 20 kHz. And they often do sound that way.



Over-generalizing statement. A well recorded and mastered CD, when played back on great equipment (which these days doesn't necessarily cost an arm and a leg), does not sound bright. We are far past the Eighties in our technology, and the debate should reflect that.



That is well possible, but you also hear clicks and pops on great current LP playback with phono stages that are carefully engineered.
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Agree they very rarely sound bright , dry and dimensionally flat vs vinyl is usually the norm but with a few exceptions ...



Regards
 
If perfect human hearing doesn't go beyond 20kHz, how did you record a 30kHz tone and hear it "plain as day"?

There could be distortion at extreme frequencies when listening to LP but there certainly are harmonics, which I wouldn't call distortion, but, does add to the perception of "air". It's like hitting middle C on a piano, you hear that note but there are also harmonics from the vibration into the strings to each side.

atmasphere said:
So do CDs; the simple fact is there isn't much energy up there. Just for fun, we ran a 30KHz tone at -10VU into our cutting lathe (Scully with Westerex 3D built about 1968) and then played the cut back on a Technics SL1200 with Grado cartridge into a Harmon Kardon 630 receiver and out the tape outs, there was our tone, plain as day.

If they are rolled off, its not on account of the format.



I agree- this statement hinging on 'should'. Its easy enough to distinguish though. Still sounds bright to my ear (and I can't hear over 15K anymore...).



There are lots of carefully engineered phono sections that are not stable. As a general rule of thumb, if the cartridge loading makes a sonic difference when using a low output moving coil phono cartridge, the phono section is probably unstable.
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Alpinist said:
Here we go again. Stick with the format your ears prefer.

Best,
Ken
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I agree. I'm perfectly happy spinning silver and gold discs on my Vitus SCD-025mk2. Some of my better recordings like Marten Supreme Sessions, XRCD24's and DXD's are stunningly real sounding. That said, I have a friend who owns Magico S7's, Vitus SM-102's, MP-L201, MP-T102/MP-D201 & a Kronos Pro with SCPS. I compared some of my best recordings on his Vitus transport/dac vs the Kronos, and i'd concede the Kronos was audibly better; fuller, smoother and more musical. Though his digital front end was still very very good & makes garden variety rbcd's sound crazy good.
 
a.wayne said:
Phono stage overload and recovery on ticks and pops is well known and any good phono stage would have been designed to accomodate for this and yes lesser ones do suffer from dynamic instability if not done correctly..

As to "brightness" this is usually associated with anomalies in the 3-7k range and not in the 18-30K range, anything above 14 K will very rarely ever be perceived as brightness , but will tend to be accepted as having more "air " and detail than Brightness ..

An 18K cutoff on digital ( 44/16) mixes makes sense , but in doing so one has to worry about phase shift in the critical audio range vs vinyl, which can easily exceed 20K ....


IMO, none are mutually exclusive , nor should they be , analog Vinyl for sound and Digital for convenience works for me ..



Regards
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sounds about right :)
 
Mr Peabody said:
If perfect human hearing doesn't go beyond 20kHz, how did you record a 30kHz tone and hear it "plain as day"?

There could be distortion at extreme frequencies when listening to LP but there certainly are harmonics, which I wouldn't call distortion, but, does add to the perception of "air". It's like hitting middle C on a piano, you hear that note but there are also harmonics from the vibration into the strings to each side.
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Errr,

Ralph didn't say he heard it , he said there it was and anything not in the original recording is considered distortion.


:)
 
Maybe go back and read the post I was referring to. Someone said, they recorded a 30kHz tone and played it back and "there it was plain as day". That seems different to me from what you said. Maybe "plain as day" needs clarification as to hearing or what sense was actually used.

a.wayne said:
Errr,

Ralph didn't say he heard it , he said there it was and anything not in the original recording is considered distortion.


:)
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Yes , same post and he did not say he heard a 30Khz note , he said "there it was plain as day"
tells me he saw the recorded signal ...


While Ralph has been known to chew on a bone or two , i dont believe he inherited the hearing ..


:)

Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Yes , same post and he did not say he heard a 30Khz note , he said "there it was plain as day"
tells me he saw the recorded signal ...


While Ralph has been known to chew on a bone or two , i dont believe he inherited the hearing ..


:)

Regards
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LOL!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mike said:
A fun read...(flame suit on):

https://www.musicinstrumentscenter.com/what-are-the-beautiful-secrets-behind-the-vinyl-records/
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:roflmao:

iStock_541005076-1.jpg
 
He did say, "out the record outs", so seeing does make more sense.

I had this image of "did you record it?" "Yeah, I pushed record". Did you hear it? Uh, no, did you? Well, let's play the LP. I can't hear it, can you. I thought I heard something, let's try it again.........................

a.wayne said:
Yes , same post and he did not say he heard a 30Khz note , he said "there it was plain as day"
tells me he saw the recorded signal ...


While Ralph has been known to chew on a bone or two , i dont believe he inherited the hearing ..


:)

Regards
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CPP said:
I sure hope this thread doesn't go all CA on everyone.
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Amen, Reverend.

I scarcely believe regulars on that forum actually care for music. It's s constant "This one goes to Eleven.." slog over there.
 
a.wayne said:
Phono stage overload and recovery on ticks and pops is well known and any good phono stage would have been designed to accomodate for this and yes lesser ones do suffer from dynamic instability if not done correctly..

As to "brightness" this is usually associated with anomalies in the 3-7k range and not in the 18-30K range, anything above 14 K will very rarely ever be perceived as brightness , but will tend to be accepted as having more "air " and detail than Brightness ..

An 18K cutoff on digital ( 44/16) mixes makes sense , but in doing so one has to worry about phase shift in the critical audio range vs vinyl, which can easily exceed 20K ....


IMO, none are mutually exclusive , nor should they be , analog Vinyl for sound and Digital for convenience works for me ..



Regards
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In cases I have seen (in fact all of them) phono overload does not seem to be a factor. Put another way it seems that such phono sections 'ring' with high frequencies without overloading. As I mentioned before, if the phono section sounds different by changing the cartridge loading on a LOMC cartridge, then its likely unstable (with LOMC cartridges the loading only affects the system at ultrasonic or Radio Frequencies; if you hear a difference its because the phono section is unstable with RFI at its input) is is likely exacerbating ticks and pops (IOW playing them louder than they actually appear on the LP surface).

With regards to the 30KHz signal of course we had to use a oscilloscope to see what was going on. No chance for hearing something like that!

I don't care to engage in the endless analog/digital debate- I listen to both mediums. However I often see misconceptions purveyed as fact and since I have LP mastering experience and also have designed and manufactured phono sections I thought I might point some things out.

When I first got the lathe up and running (I've owned it for about 25 years) it dashed a number of misconceptions I had about the LP medium, those being bandwidth, noise floor and distortion. In those regards the lathe cuts have a lot more bandwidth, much lower noise and distortion than most people realize. The limitations appear to come in on the playback side, not record. For example, a lot of people accuse the LP of 'saturation and overload' when such is literally impossible. The amps driving the cutter head typically make about 10 times the power needed to fry the cutter, and the cutter can make undistorted cuts that no arm and cartridge combo could possibly hope to track. IOW you can't overload the cutter system- sure you can overcut the grooves and such- those are mastering issues, not issues of saturation. I think also people don't realize that bandwidth up to about 40KHz has been built into the medium ever since the advent of the stereo LP, and that bandwidth has been in most cartridges and phono equalizers since the mid 1970s at least (possibly earlier).

The above statements are not some sort of attack on digital. Its just what is.
 
Agree ,

I myself , don't find them mutually exclusive , enjoy both myself. As to phono stage ringing this is not really level dependent and is much different from overload and recovery, as you know ...

My LP mastering days are way, way in the rearview mirror and the only time i have ever seen distortion to the masters or acetates was from VU levels, not due to the cutter ...

Regards
 
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