Kingsrule
Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2014
- Messages
- 646
Not exactly. Toyota helped streamline and modernize Porche's production process at Stuttgart.......so that they would be more profitable
2019 Aston Martin Vantage
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Not exactly. Toyota helped streamline and modernize Porche's production process at Stuttgart.......so that they would be more profitable
a.wayne
Well-known member
Yea Toyota was hired to setup their production line and had tried many times to purchase Porsche , but they were never allowed to , Weissach research center is “the” center in the car world..
Regards
a.wayne
Well-known member
Air cooled Porsche’s were never unreliable and never needed Toyota for a “fix “, there were QC issues , in regards to fit and finish and other oddities, so build quality had to be addressed as Porsche was never setup and had never intended to manufacturer such large numbers and was actually outsourcing the work to Audi and others ( 911/928 were in house) this led to high production cost and low QC .
The Toyota production line method ended the air cooled engine era as it did not lend itself to production methods and was mostly hand built. The water cooled Porsche had other issues of over complexity and high production cost and needed gone . Those changes led to the current water cooled based cars .
BTW,
Porsche was’nt going anywhere with or without Toyota’s Help , Toyota is a car manufacturer who races , Porsche is a race shop manufacturing and building street cars , Toyota provided the direction necessary to make the transition from race shop to car manufacturer...
Regards
You aren't deep into Audi / Porsches, are you ?
There are VERY few VW/Audi engines that Porsche actually uses. There are the TDI ones in Cayenne / Macan / Panamera, the 2.0 TFSI in a Macan, VR6 in older Cayenne models. The new upcoming Cayenne (2019-) may use more Audi engines - not sure about this, would need to check, but 2.9T and 4.0T sound familiar.
RE. Audi R8. I'm not talking here about the R8 V10 performance or sales vs Porsche (which would be a loooong debate), but reliability. And the truth is, Porsche engines are junk from the reliability point of view (ok, maybe Yugo is still worse).
I want to make things clear here: I own both Audi and Porsche, so I have no horse in this race. Go to rennlist forum or 6speedonline to learn about many Porsche engine problems.
Priaptor
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2013
- Messages
- 259
I was into Porsche more than I care to list but kind of grew tired of the 911, except for the GT series. Same with exotics in general. It would be nice to have some of that $$ back but I had a great time with just about all of my exotics; some were nightmares.
Because of my hip I had to get Macan, got the Turbo but found getting in was fairly difficult as well. I went into Audi looking around as I never owned one. They had an RS3 on the floor trying to get 10K over list and saw me looking at it. I love those little pocket rockets. They saw me getting in and out and surprisingly given the absence of a complete circle at the bottom of the steering wheel and the way the seats are made it was pretty easy in and out. All the salesman wanted to do was tell me about the car's prowess and all I cared about was getting in and out.
I think they only make 250 year, they were obviously not getting an extra 10K out of me. Well, needless to say, I traded the Macan and left with RS3. I know what I am about to say is heresy to Porsche owners, but I had a Cayman GTS and really like the RS3 better. Awesome car. Got it with the additional performance package.
After I get my hip replaced, I will see what if anything is on the list. If you have never driven an American Muscle car, there are some very worth the price of admission. Totally different experience BUT....
a.wayne
Well-known member
Adam could you clarify what you wrote , are they using or not using Audi/VW power plants ?
Are you saying the Audi/VW powerplants in Porsche’s are junk or is it the 911 engines in particular ..
I do own , have , had both Marques and know a little bit about them as well as other Marques , raced a few too , very Familiar with Rennlist and 6spd , car forums , ALL , discuss problems , go to any and see one without issues , Audi/VW got major issues , never had anything remotely bad with any Porsche (911 specifically) I won’t run an Audi /VW product out of warranty , garbage plastic bits and wiring issues abound , of course BMW can be worse and Mercedes , arggh , have their woes too.
My Brother went full Lexus , due to German woes for decades , I can’t stand those things , well the driving part , if for transportation only ? Buy Jap ..
It’s a bit different across the pond here mate .....
a.wayne
Well-known member
Double post .... :
a.wayne
Well-known member
All problematic engines are those specific to Porsche:
- flat six in the 911 / Boxter / Cayman
- V8 in Panamera / Cayenne / Macan
Audi sourced engines ... just work. Which is not surprising, with the number of cars in the field (VAG has deployed them in across all their brands, from VW, Audi to Skoda), VAG had the time and car numbers needed to perfect them.
I had Audi A4 B6, S5 B8 and Q5. I did over 100.000 miles in my (modded!) 2002 Audi A4 1.8T B6 and another 100.000 in 2010 Audi Q5 2.0 TDI (chipped!) and had almost zero problems with each car (I had coilpacks recalled on my A4 and a swinarm replaced on my Q5). My 2010 S5 has only 30.000 miles and of course - zero problems.
Many of my friends running Audis share my experience.
I also had 2001 Merc C-Class and 2004 Merc E-Class. I my wife did over 120.000 with each and those were a nightmare. Many electrical problems and they rusted like a FIAT from the 80s! Never ever a Merc again.
All cars I've bought were brand new.
- flat six in the 911 / Boxter / Cayman
- V8 in Panamera / Cayenne / Macan
Audi sourced engines ... just work. Which is not surprising, with the number of cars in the field (VAG has deployed them in across all their brands, from VW, Audi to Skoda), VAG had the time and car numbers needed to perfect them.
I had Audi A4 B6, S5 B8 and Q5. I did over 100.000 miles in my (modded!) 2002 Audi A4 1.8T B6 and another 100.000 in 2010 Audi Q5 2.0 TDI (chipped!) and had almost zero problems with each car (I had coilpacks recalled on my A4 and a swinarm replaced on my Q5). My 2010 S5 has only 30.000 miles and of course - zero problems.
Many of my friends running Audis share my experience.
I also had 2001 Merc C-Class and 2004 Merc E-Class. I my wife did over 120.000 with each and those were a nightmare. Many electrical problems and they rusted like a FIAT from the 80s! Never ever a Merc again.
All cars I've bought were brand new.
Priaptor
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2013
- Messages
- 259
I like that new Alfa. One of the craziest cars I ever bought was the first hardtop Dodge Viper with the blue body and white stripe. First, you burned you leg every time you got out of the car. Second, the air intake valves would ALWAYS loosen and as a result, where the car should be idling at 400-500 rpm, it would then start idling at 2500 rpm, near maximum torque so getting into first was something else. The cabin was hotter than hell and by the time I got to work I needed a shower. BUT driving the car was exhilarating, at least when it worked.
Today's "exotics" with very few exceptions have AC, radio that you can hear and all the creature features that were absent on exotics years ago.
Mike Lavigne
Member
here is the reality of it from a car business perspective.
based on decades of painful experience, I won't allow my Used Car department to sell an Audi or VW out of warranty. we don't have long enough extension cords and when you do fix them they don't stay fixed (can't make customers happy).
average repair order (non oil change) in my Honda dealership is about $170. it's over $600 at the VW dealership up the street. and the customer expectations are totally different (Honda customers expect perfect)...…but got to hand it to VW their customers are somehow loyal. and the cars are relatively fun to drive.
And Porsche would be like $2000, lol.
A small service @ AUDI dealership (basicly an oil change) cost over here 150 EUR + parts (oil, oil filter).
Same service @ Porsche dealership (which is in the very same building) is ... 600 EUR. 4x more. Same for Porsche branded oils and parts. But they give an invoice nicely folded in a Porsche envelope, LOL.
A small service @ AUDI dealership (basicly an oil change) cost over here 150 EUR + parts (oil, oil filter).
Same service @ Porsche dealership (which is in the very same building) is ... 600 EUR. 4x more. Same for Porsche branded oils and parts. But they give an invoice nicely folded in a Porsche envelope, LOL.
Priaptor
Banned
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2013
- Messages
- 259
I will tell you thing I can't stand about some of these places. I can't stand that you have to first speak to "service representative", wait in their coffee room until he/she is finished with others, then have to sit while he/she makes small talk, writes down all the stuff on the sheets to finally hand over the keys. One of the things I loved about my Shelby was I drove the thing to Ford, just handed over the keys and was gone.
I had so many nightmares with the "free service" with my M3 with BMW I said never again. Rodney was my service guy. Before I could drop the car off I had to see Rodney. My left rear light never worked. I would tell him over and over again with each service FIX THE LIGHT. It never got fixed. At the big service at 36K, I waited for Rodney, told him about the rear light for which once again apologized. I picked the car up, drove about 3 miles just before getting on the TPKE and every dummy light in the car came on. I drove it back to the dealer and Rodney was out to lunch and was told very "nicely" by the receptionist you have to WAIT for Rodney. I exploded and the service manager finally came out. Well three weeks later, after they fixed what they broke, I picked up the car and guess what, the real light still didn't work. That was it for me.
Another funny thing about Porsche: nowadays, they are mostly built with VW parts. Cayenne has at least 80% of VW parts. When you take the car apart, you will notice VAG/VW/Audi logos everywhere, from electronic modules to simple connectors. Some parts are even Seat branded (which is a budget VAG brand, like a Skoda, only made in Spain).
Anyway, Porsche has their own part # for everything. So if you go to Porsche dealership to buy say a broken parking sensor, they will give you the Porsche part #, not the real VW part #, which is printed on the actual part. When you know the VW part # for the part you need, you can go to the VW dealership and get it from VW for like ... 60% of the cost. And if that part happen to be used in Skoda or Seat, you can get it from there for like 30% of Porsche cost, lol.
Anyway, Porsche has their own part # for everything. So if you go to Porsche dealership to buy say a broken parking sensor, they will give you the Porsche part #, not the real VW part #, which is printed on the actual part. When you know the VW part # for the part you need, you can go to the VW dealership and get it from VW for like ... 60% of the cost. And if that part happen to be used in Skoda or Seat, you can get it from there for like 30% of Porsche cost, lol.
Mike Lavigne
Member
note to self; don't bring work to your hobby forum. then it's like you are still at work.
I'm 'that guy' who gets the most irate customer and has to stop the bleeding. it's why I have my hifi system, as the antidote.
CPP
Active member
Like everything, it all depends on the owner of the dealer or any business in general. The attitude and the overall mentality of the owner regarding customer service makes its way down to the mechanic. You get what you pay for.
While I had my 911S and a BWM which I purchased from Bromos Automotive in Jacksonville many many years ago,the owner back then was Peter Gregg, Bob Snodgrass. They lived and breathed performance, racing and customer service,. I would call make a appointment, get there 2 hours away from my home, waiting for me was a Porsche to drive around while my car was being serviced, a meal ticket to a restaurant for lunch and the most friendly service staff I had ever experienced. If something was broke, its was fixed. Sadly that dealership has been sold to a big old automobile conglomerate and well, its not the same anymore. Nothing but a big business in the business to move cars.
One more story on Porsche markups, since this thread got me started.
Simple transmission oil change in a Cayenne is $1800. Of which, close to a grand is oil (the transmission takes 9L of ATF, which Porsche sells for like $90 per 1L, so 9x $90 = $810).
Now, you can get the very same oil from the OEM Porsche supplier, which is FEBI Bilstein, in the very same bottle (but with a FEBI sticker), with the very same part #, for ... $10 per 1L ! That is $90 vs $810. 9x less (nine times !!!).
The rest of the parts (oil filter / pan gasket) are $200 from Porsche. But you can go to Toyota, which happens to be using the very same Aisin gearboxes that Cayenne does in various Toyota / Lexus models, where those parts are like $60 total. So we are talking about $60 + $90 = $150 in parts + labor.
While at Toyota, you can probably flush the transmission here as well (or go to a Porsche indy) for like $100, so that would total $250. Or go to Porsche stealership and fork out $1800
For the very same job, using the very same parts.
No wonder, they can afford to give you the invoices nicely folded in an envelope, lol.
Simple transmission oil change in a Cayenne is $1800. Of which, close to a grand is oil (the transmission takes 9L of ATF, which Porsche sells for like $90 per 1L, so 9x $90 = $810).
Now, you can get the very same oil from the OEM Porsche supplier, which is FEBI Bilstein, in the very same bottle (but with a FEBI sticker), with the very same part #, for ... $10 per 1L ! That is $90 vs $810. 9x less (nine times !!!).
The rest of the parts (oil filter / pan gasket) are $200 from Porsche. But you can go to Toyota, which happens to be using the very same Aisin gearboxes that Cayenne does in various Toyota / Lexus models, where those parts are like $60 total. So we are talking about $60 + $90 = $150 in parts + labor.
While at Toyota, you can probably flush the transmission here as well (or go to a Porsche indy) for like $100, so that would total $250. Or go to Porsche stealership and fork out $1800
For the very same job, using the very same parts.No wonder, they can afford to give you the invoices nicely folded in an envelope, lol.
still-one
Active member
One more story on Porsche markups, since this thread got me started.
Simple transmission oil change in a Cayenne is $1800. Of which, close to a grand is oil (the transmission takes 9L of ATF, which Porsche sells for like $90 per 1L, so 9x $90 = $810).
Now, you can get the very same oil from the OEM Porsche supplier, which is FEBI Bilstein, in the very same bottle (but with a FEBI sticker), with the very same part #, for ... $10 per 1L ! That is $90 vs $810. 9x less (nine times !!!).
The rest of the parts (oil filter / pan gasket) are $200 from Porsche. But you can go to Toyota, which happens to be using the very same Aisin gearboxes that Cayenne does in various Toyota / Lexus models, where those parts are like $60 total. So we are talking about $60 + $90 = $150 in parts + labor.
While at Toyota, you can probably flush the transmission here as well (or go to a Porsche indy) for like $100, so that would total $250. Or go to Porsche stealership and fork out $1800
No wonder, they can afford to give you the invoices nicely folded in an envelope, lol.
Oh come on. The oil change at the dealership for my 2017 Cayenne e-Hybrid was (7)quarts X Mobil 1 @ 9.10 = $63.70. The filter @ $27.28. The labor $145. Total $235.98. They do have to remove the under-try which drives the labor cost up a bit.