2016 Chip R2R engine VS Chipless discrete R2R

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abeidrov

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Hi Everyone,

I currently have a Lampi L4 G4 DAC and plan to upgrade to SE GG in the nearest future. Life was good before Lukas introduced these new 2 R2R options. First, there was just one: chipless discrete R2R, now there are 2: the chipless one and the chip based one.
The chipless option is included in the price of the GG. The chip based option is included in the price of the Big 7. Both variants are listed as upgrade options for L4 and the SE options have the same price. There is a quad mono option of the discrete R2R type and it is more expensive, than the balanced chip based R2R option. Is one superior to the other one? Is it possible to install the quad mono discrete R2R option to a SE DAC?
I think, that the chipless option is the better one, but my dealer asked Lukas and the answer was they are both equally good sounding, just different.
Has anyone had a chance to compare these 2 options? Sorry for all these questions. I am just a little bit confused right now.
Thanks,
Aziz
 
Sorry I just received my GG and I am not aware of the all the options you describe and some don't make sense. I think there is some mix up here. Here is how I understand the options but please correct me if wrong:

1) Balanced or SE: I believe the balanced = quad mono.
2) DSD: chipless on higher end models. Using whatever dac chip on lower end models. Maybe option for ones that aren't chipless. Also, DSD128,256,512 standard or option depending on model
3) PCM: R2R or Not. R2R standard on GG. Optional elsewhere. Not sure what a chipless r2r would be since r2r describes the chip. Maybe mixup between chipless DSD and r2r PCM option.
4) volume control or not
5) head amp or no

i upgraded from big5. I can tell you that you will notice immediate significant upgrade. Something magical about DHT on output that makes it special.
 
The options I describe refer to PCM only. Please, look at the price list page: http://www.lampizator.eu/Fikus/PRICE_LIST.html. Now, look at the B7 SE description. It says: "new 2016 Lampizator PCM engine, chip R2R current output type". So, this is the chip based new PCM engine. It can be upgraded to R2R discrete resistor ladder engine. This is the chipless version. GG has the chipless engine included in the price.
 
I think we are both right. The price list does imply that that the PCM chip now being used in Big7 is a R2R chip. If that is the case, it seems like the R2R "chipless" design is basically a separate board with some kind of resistor ladder design (totaldac does something like this). I am not sure how long this new PCM chip has been in BIG 7. However, most who have gotten upgrade to R2R board have commented that it was an upgrade.

As for your other questions:
1) Is it possible to install the quad mono discrete R2R option to a SE DAC? The quad mono R2R option is basically referring to the fact it is balanced. So short answer is no. Btw, even though price list under BIG 7 SE refers to quad mono, I believe it is referring to the fact that the balanced version is in a quad mono topology.
 
I think the people, who commented on the upgraded PCM performance, have the chipless discrete resistor ladder version. To me, the big question remains: what is the difference sound wise between the new chip based and the new chipless PCM engine? Is there anyone who has experienced both?
Most likely, I will order the chipless discrete resistor version, although, my only experience with an R2R discrete resistor DAC (MSB Analog) has been rather negative.
 
On my newly arrived GG I have the R2R PCM engine, that is NOT the R2R ladder engine.

I was convincingly told before ordering that the ladder engine does NOT sound any better than the chip based one, it just costs more and there is some recent hype about r2r ladder designs.

The new R2R pcm engine is a definite upgrade to the older pcm engine though as reported on several sites.
 
khonfused said:
On my newly arrived GG I have the R2R PCM engine, that is NOT the R2R ladder engine.

I was convincingly told before ordering that the ladder engine does NOT sound any better than the chip based one, it just costs more and there is some recent hype about r2r ladder designs.

The new R2R pcm engine is a definite upgrade to the older pcm engine though as reported on several sites.
Click to expand...
Welcome Chris...please keep the feedback coming, especially as you seem to have similar SQ tastes to me, Joe, Mike and Bill...NOT hyper clinical.
 
This is what Lampizator says about the new PCM engines on its site:
"Our company is famous for relentless R&D efforts and since we have two different people responsible for DAC digital works - one for R2R and one for Delta Sigma - we witnessed a furious competition to create the superior DAC engine. The R2R sets the bar so high that it seemed a mission impossible in 2015 for the delta sigma DAC to even approach the R2R. However in early 2016 we developed a new improved delta sigma DAC that redefined whats possible in this technology. In our internal (very accurate and long) testing we concluded, that both techniques became equally good. This allows us to offer BOTH technologies to our customers without any preference from our side which is used. The customer will not be able to distinguish himself which is which. It is only the matter of subjective, non audible preference of the end user".

I still find it quite strange that implementations, which are so different, can sound the same. Also, according to the site, upgrade to both is the same price and R2R Ladder engine is included in the GG price.
 
Lampizator has finally updated its site. If you look at the new price list section, it is now clear that if you get the new chipless R2R board, you no longer need the famous analog filter based DSD engine. The new R2R engine supports both PCM and DSD, no need for manual switching between PCM and DSD. Interesting...
 
Does that mean you all have 2 DAC boards and you press a button to switch between them ?
 
deuter said:
Does that mean you all have 2 DAC boards and you press a button to switch between them ?
Click to expand...

I think it means with the new DAC engine, it automatically switches between PCM and DSD playback like most other designs.

Ken
 
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