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  1. #1

    What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Hello,

    I guess I'm curious to see to what brands have Horn like life/jump/presence but, are your standard dynamic driver speaker.

    Devore Fidelity and Tekton Design were names mentioned to me but, wanted to ask around to see if there are others.

  2. #2
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    What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Stenheim.

    Devore? No.

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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Vivid


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  4. #4

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Vivid


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    Thanks. Ok so, another one for you.

    Does one exist that has the resolution/transparency of a Electrostatic? I would assume it would be the Vivid?

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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Monitor Audio

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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Spatial Audio
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  7. #7
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Magico gets close - but only their M series
    Jock

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  8. #8

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Spatial Audio gets another vote from me...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #9

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    Magico gets close - but only their M series
    I wasn't expecting Magico to be named. But, then again I've never heard any M Series speaker.

    Only Q and S models.

  10. #10

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Can you define what "jump factor" means to you?
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  11. #11

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Can you define what "jump factor" means to you?
    It would describe it as if I was listening to a horn speaker. Perhaps it has to do with the combination of horn/ high Sensitivity.

  12. #12
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    I guess I'm curious to see to what brands have Horn like life/jump/presence but, are your standard dynamic driver speaker.

    Devore Fidelity and Tekton Design were names mentioned to me but, wanted to ask around to see if there are others.

    It would describe it as if I was listening to a horn speaker. Perhaps it has to do with the combination of horn/ high Sensitivity.
    Most horns use dynamic drives. What you are most likely trying to describe, are "direct radiator" speakers, i.e. non-horn loaded "naked" drivers like most dome tweeters, mids, etc...with higher sensitivity. Those exist. However, horn loading doesn't just raise sensitivity, it controls directvity, so the polar pattern/off axis is markedly different from the uncontrolled "naked" direct radiator drivers. This narrowed radiation vs wider has audible consequences, including all the audiophile verbiage like "jump" etc.

    As a side note, many audiophile speaker sensitivity "specs" are blatant lies, for the intended uncritical easily convinced audience. Stereophile et al measurements reveal this on a consistent basis, though that has, understandably, zero effect.

    cheers,

    AJ

  13. #13

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Most horns use dynamic drives. What you are most likely trying to describe, are "direct radiator" speakers, i.e. non-horn loaded "naked" drivers like most dome tweeters, mids, etc...with higher sensitivity. Those exist. However, horn loading doesn't just raise sensitivity, it controls directvity, so the polar pattern/off axis is markedly different from the uncontrolled "naked" direct radiator drivers. This narrowed radiation vs wider has audible consequences, including all the audiophile verbiage like "jump" etc.

    As a side note, many audiophile speaker sensitivity "specs" are blatant lies, for the intended uncritical easily convinced audience. Stereophile et al measurements reveal this on a consistent basis, though that has, understandably, zero effect.

    cheers,

    AJ
    Zero effect on what? People's purchasing decisions? Another factor is that even though a speaker can meet it's stated sensitivity as confirmed by JA's measurements, it can obscure the fact that the speaker is very hard to drive due to its average low impedance and sometimes difficult phase angles.
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  14. #14

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    It would describe it as if I was listening to a horn speaker. Perhaps it has to do with the combination of horn/ high Sensitivity.
    Horns and high sensitivity normally go hand in hand. If you have a high sensitivity speaker that is an easy load for an amp to drive, your speakers jump to life very quickly at very low power. The inverse of that are speakers with low sensitivity and present a difficult load to the amplifier which results in having to crank the volume to bring your speakers to life.
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  15. #15

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Horns and high sensitivity normally go hand in hand. If you have a high sensitivity speaker that is an easy load for an amp to drive, your speakers jump to life very quickly at very low power. The inverse of that are speakers with low sensitivity and present a difficult load to the amplifier which results in having to crank the volume to bring your speakers to life.
    This is my exact situation. I’m debating either switching speakers or having to go to monoblock amps.

  16. #16

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Thank you for starting this thread. That jump factor is addictive and I am looking for similar in my next speaker - so much so that I'm hoping to fly down to Mike's early next year to hear some avantgardes and see if they are the bees knees for me.

    One of the earlier comments mentioned magico m series. can anyone expand on this - i have the s5mk2 and there is some jump for sure but only when i crank the volume (so i do!), not sure if i noticed more on the m series or not but i have never heard the m series in my room and my system so apple-to-apples comparison is hard.

    if one wants to extract extra jump from their current speakers, i found that lowering the noise floor helps the most and then adequate amplification. in my case the following changes really brought it out for me: i plugged everything into a torus avr unit which really brought down the noise floor, then - most surprisingly - a change in music server allowed for another reduction in noise floor and increase in resolution...there was a new sense of realism, finally a more powerful amp helped which also surprised me as i didn't think my speakers needed more power. maybe this comes back to the earlier comments about sensitivity ratings on paper vs. in room but from what i've read the mk2 series doesnt have too many nasty phase angles but the m series does seem to be higher sensitivity.

  17. #17
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Zero effect on what? People's...?
    Yes, people. Sensitivity, claimed vs reality. Years after said www. published measurements, people will insist otherwise. Reality had zero effect.

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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Surprised no one has mentioned Tannoy or PMC, or Zu Audio.
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  19. #19

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Lansche.


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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    Thanks. Ok so, another one for you.

    Does one exist that has the resolution/transparency of a Electrostatic? I would assume it would be the Vivid?
    Borresen With the resolution and transparency and the much needed dynamics.
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  21. #21

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    It would describe it as if I was listening to a horn speaker. Perhaps it has to do with the combination of horn/ high Sensitivity.
    This is not a definition. What does the horn speaker do so that it is "as if you were listening to a horn speaker"?

    Do you mean by "jump factor" vividness, dynamics?
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  22. #22
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    Magico gets close - but only their M series
    this ain’t Mágicos strength at all. Sorry to disagree.
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    What does the horn speaker do so that it is "as if you were listening to a horn speaker"?
    It looks like a horn. The same way an electrostatic is "transparent", etc, etc, etc, etc. The ears only CPU has other hard wired sensors.
    You see?

    p.s. the typical coaxial speaker is very much a dynamic driver....horn

  24. #24

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    This is not a definition. What does the horn speaker do so that it is "as if you were listening to a horn speaker"?

    Do you mean by "jump factor" vividness, dynamics?
    Yes, well I'm looking for vivid, dynamics and life in a Cone (have to watch my words with AJ on this thread; lol) speaker.

    Something that I don't have to crack the volume for it come alive.

    I know there probably isn't one ideal speaker but, just looking to what what other members recommend.

    Perhaps I should consider horns?

    But, I didn't think they would be a me a good match for my electronics (Spectral)

    I didn't want to swap both.

    I'm considering either swapping the loudspeaker but, keeping electronics OR

    Upgrading to Monoblock amps from Stereo and keep existing speakers.

  25. #25

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    this ain’t Mágicos strength at all. Sorry to disagree.
    Sorry to disagree, Keith, but you don't have enough experience with Magico (while you do have more experience than me on other things).
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  26. #26

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    Sorry to disagree, Keith, but you don't have enough experience with Magico (while you do have more experience than me on other things).
    So, we have a Magico M2 owner on this thread saying they are indeed easier to drive and come alive more so than the Q and S models.

    Another member S5kmk2 owner is also looking for something similar as myself.

    Al,

    What is your experience regarding this?

  27. #27

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    Sorry to disagree, Keith, but you don't have enough experience with Magico (while you do have more experience than me on other things).
    So are we measuring how many hours you both have spent listening to Magico speakers at shows, dealers, and friends? Who is keeping the log books so we can see who has the most experience?
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  28. #28

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    So, we have a Magico M2 owner on this thread saying they are indeed easier to drive and come alive more so than the Q and S models.

    Another member S5kmk2 owner is also looking for something similar as myself.

    Al,

    What is your experience regarding this?
    Next to having had regular exposure to the M Project, I have heard stunning, extraordinary dynamics on piano and orchestral music from the Q3.

    Things always depend on the entire system context and speaker set-up.

    The perceived dynamics of Magico speakers are very set-up dependent, whereas my own Reference 3A monitors sound boldly vivid and dynamic almost regardless of where you position them in the room.
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  29. #29
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdp632 View Post
    Something that I don't have to crack the volume for it come alive.

    Perhaps I should consider horns?

    But, I didn't think they would be a me a good match for my electronics (Spectral)
    You should consider whatever sounds best to you, regardless of whether horn, direct radiator, panel, etc.
    At low volume. That's not a terribly difficult scenario to recreate demo wise, at home, dealer, show, etc.
    Not sure what model Spectral, but you most likely have far more than enough power to recreate low volumes, regardless of speaker type and sensitivity.
    Your ears, like every other human (regardless of beliefs), follows equal loudness contours, which means you hear things differently at low volumes, vs mid or high volumes. What audiophiles often seek, since they shun things like tone and worse, "loudness" controls (which were once popular when common sense prevailed), are speakers with built in loudness curves.
    I.e., tilted up bass and treble native response. That will definitely sound better at low volume! Maybe not so much at mid-high. YMMV.

    Side note, I've exhibited dozens of audio shows, meets, etc.
    I'd guesstimate 1 in 1000 audiophile attendee actually bring their own tracks to listen and evaluate systems (including loudspeakers) with. These are the very same folks asking questions like yours here.
    Somehow they are able to determine certain attributes when there are 50+ variables, unfamiliar equipment, connections, power, sources, rooms, etc, etc....with unfamiliar tracks.
    IOW, the one constant/reference: how particular very familiar tracks sound to you at home, say at low volume, on ones own system, are not used, in totally unfamiliar environment evals. Go figure.

    Good luck with your search.

    cheers,

    AJ

  30. #30

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    To follow up on my message yesterday and some of the subsequent posts about magicos...we must keep in mind that if the recording doesn't have the dynamic range there won't be much jump to speak of anyways. When the recording calls for it the magicos can show the dynamic range vs. recordings that are victims of the loudness wars. However, as much as I love these speakers this is one of their weaker points comparatively...or rather, it takes alot of class a power to coax that snap out of them. An expensive endeavor no matter how you cut it.

  31. #31
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    I had some 93.5 db ef speakers that did have some mid horn color, but drum kits played back on those speakers was really impressive. the dynamics, slam, and presence outweighed their shortcomings and I used them for 25 years. They were also very good low volume speakers.
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  32. #32

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    I had some 93.5 db ef speakers that did have some mid horn color, but drum kits played back on those speakers was really impressive. the dynamics, slam, and presence outweighed their shortcomings and I used them for 25 years. They were also very good low volume speakers.
    Which speakers were they?
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  33. #33
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Kef R105/3 from 1990, I mention them more to share my definition of jump factor then a recommendation.
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  34. #34
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    The horn membrane moves nanometers and produces the most dynamic sound. I just don’t think any traditional box speaker can compete in this one area. What is your opposition to horn speakers? I would encourage you to listen to some Avantgarde’s. Duo XD or above preferably.


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  35. #35
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    deleted
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, VA Beethovens, , Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

  36. #36

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve59 View Post
    Kef R105/3 from 1990, I mention them more to share my definition of jump factor then a recommendation.
    I was trying to understand how your old KEF speakers could have “mid horn color” when there are are no horns used in that design.
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  37. #37
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I was trying to understand how your old KEF speakers could have “mid horn color” when there are are no horns used in that design.
    Coax
    Midrange acts as the horn for tweeter. Some older designs had similar complaints.

  38. #38

    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The horn membrane moves nanometers and produces the most dynamic sound. I just don’t think any traditional box speaker can compete in this one area. What is your opposition to horn speakers? I would encourage you to listen to some Avantgarde’s. Duo XD or above preferably.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Oh I have no opposition to horns. I just assumed they wouldn’t be a good match to my solid state electronics.

    I’ve never experienced a modern horn.

  39. #39
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    Re: What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Coax
    Midrange acts as the horn for tweeter. Some older designs had similar complaints.
    the tweeter and magnet assembly wasn't any bigger than an inch across and maybe 5/8's deep with about a 2-1/2" stem/mount coming off the back and that thing put out!
    Meridian dsp8000 se upgrade, meridian 218 zone controller, VA Beethovens, , Hegel h360, rega jupiter, roon nucleus, revox tuner.

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What are some dymanic driver/non-horn speakers that have that "jump" factor?

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