Why no turntable? - Page 51
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  1. #501
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Imagine the discourse when You actually get your hands on hi rez top Tier Digital playback

  2. #502
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    AJ, have you captured a Youtube of your ADA test yet. I gather you never got Al to your place. The other thread just ends.


    I wasn't trying to dredge up another digital vs analog spout. Whoops. Maybe my point should have been more along the line that when you get to higher levels of vinyl equipment, the level of playback quality really goes up. Enough so in my case it moved beyond my digital. Maybe I could play some leap frog. My DAC is now the entry level unit with Mojo Audio. The new Evo DAC by Mojo is suppose to be quite a bit better, but its now getting into the $9k to $11k range depending on options. But then I could get a new TT cartridge. But then a new dgital cable, but then a new tone arm, but then a new etc etc etc.

    I guess its wrong to say one betters the other because something can be changed to alter the outcome. In my case, moving from a modded Rega RP6 to the STST Motus II was a large uptick in performance. The expressive nature of music was improved by a large degree making existing media I have a much closer to your there level of playback.

    Maybe what I have found, in my sytem is that in the sub $6k range digital does everything vinyl does and many times better. As I got over $11k, the vinyl started taking the show. If I upgraded my DAC, I would be in the $15k digital realm and who knows the outcome then.

  3. #503
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    The compare has been done at all levels Rex and even diehard digi freaks give in when exposed .. Analog is a PITA , thats it , beats digital hands down all day everyday for preferred sound , of course this is system dependent , small scale underpowered systems will always favor digital , this has been my experience over the decades ....

    large scale systems with appropriate power excels on analog in no uncertain way, its not that the best digital is bad its just never ever sounds as natural always electronic, there are a few exceptions and degrees of this of course .. ..

    YMMV etc , etc ..!

  4. #504
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    As I explained, the differences in dynamics were so huge that they simply cannot be explained by differences in system dynamics, and that the other system also can sound very dynamic. And I have heard other orchestral LPs on that system with a much wider dynamic range. I used this example because it particularly highlighted the issue, as I explained in my post:



    So no, the LP/CD comparison does not always yield this result. This was a particularly drastic example that I used to try to explain an artifact which to a much lesser degree may very well also be present on other LPs of 'big' orchestral music, and which would explain the extra 'detail' and 'fullness' heard on LP.

    Just like other music, orchestral music can sound dynamically explosive on LP, but then mostly on 45 rpm pressings. For example the Reference Recordings Symphonie Fantastique is incredibly, stunningly dynamic on great vinyl playback. But it still does not have the huge absolute dynamic range of that Mahler 3 recording. If you would try to put that dynamic range on LP, the soft passages would probably compete with some surface noise.

    It is also no coincidence that the Sheffield drum track is on a 45 rpm LP, on one side of only 7 minutes length. You could not get those incredible dynamics from LP on a 33 rpm pressing of 20 minutes length with much less wide groves.

    You could, however, easily get such dynamics on a standard CD, as for example can be heard on the famous 7 minute drum solo "Freedom Rider" by Art Blakey, on a CD of more than 70 minutes length (Complete Blue Note Recordings, volume 1960-62, CD 3 of 4 CD box set).
    I think you have added more information for those reading. There are issues with the line of thinking you communicated above that are best left for your discovery over time and experience: much like how you came to where you are now.

    However, it still appears you have added support to my comment you replied to:
    "If the former, I could possibly understand. If it's the later, I have observed different outcomes that depends on a few variables. Experience tells me it is usually up to the process of how the track was transferred to the medium(s)."
    On a final note: If you want to know my general thoughts on the original question posed by Mike, you can see it earlier in the thread here: https://www.audioshark.org/showthrea...l=1#post276766

  5. #505
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    The event that AJ referenced above was on May 22, 2016. I found my notes from the event! The owner of Pure Vinyl did a presentation to the audiophile groups in Tampa and Sarasota at Bartís house. At the time, Bart had JAMO speakers and Pass electronics, combined with EMM DAC. The Pure Vinyl guy brought a modest Rega turntable. My notes indicates a KORG A2D was used.

    Using Bartís large screen and projector, he was able to project the results from his laptop onto the screen for everyone to see and obviously, hear in real time as the record was playing and the analog was being captured and converted to digital and then played back and compared and contrasted at the same time to the record being played.

    A first Japanese Pressing of Pink Floydís DSOTM was used as the source. An all analog recording and pressing at the time.

    What the test showed, was that even at the highest sample rate (24/192 in this case), there was still quite a bit of information on the record that was not being converted to digital. It was being truncated. Moreover, it was clear to me and everyone there (AJ may disagree, but at the time, pictures of his face show otherwise!) that the vinyl was clearly superior sonically and the data didnít lie. There was information on the record that could not be captured by the Pure Vinyl. At the time, 24/192 was the highest level we could imagine. Would that change with a much higher bit/sample rate? I donít know.

    Prior to the experiment, the digital only guys argued that we couldnít hear above 16/44, but what the test showed and my notes clearly indicate was that there were indeed sonic cues, air, ambience and more that was being truncated by the digital file even at itís highest sampling rate.

    I think it could be argued that in 2016, software, ADCís and the like might not have been at the level they are today and the results today might be different, especially with higher sample rates.

    But in the end, this very old technology of a needle in a groove still produces fabulous sound and fun for millions of people around the world.
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  7. #506
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    AJ, have you captured a Youtube of your ADA test yet. I gather you never got Al to your place. The other thread just ends.
    Of course not. Who wants to be exposed and look silly for the entire world to see? It will never happen for that reason. Most audiophiles have just enough sense/cognizance to evade these type things.
    Btw, Al was never coming to my place, that I'm aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    I guess its wrong to say one betters the other because something can be changed to alter the outcome.
    No, you're not wrong to say that within the limits of your stereo, you prefer X vs Y. That is not contentious whatsoever, nor anything to discuss further. Preference is absolute.
    Problems only arise when audiophiles project beyond their own realities into physical reality.
    As I've linked numerous times, the one or two who have been exposed to reality outside the echo-chamber bubble, wouldn't be arguing for 19th century stereo tech being the ultimate reproduction in the 21st century. At least not among rational folks.
    What they prefer is another matter.

    cheers,

    AJ

  8. #507
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    AJ , inventor of slick 50 replies ....

  9. #508
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The event that AJ referenced above was on May 22, 2016. I found my notes from the event! The owner of Pure Vinyl did a presentation to the audiophile groups in Tampa and Sarasota at Bart’s house. At the time, Bart had JAMO speakers and Pass electronics, combined with EMM DAC. The Pure Vinyl guy brought a modest Rega turntable. My notes indicates a KORG A2D was used.

    Using Bart’s large screen and projector, he was able to project the results from his laptop onto the screen for everyone to see and obviously, hear in real time as the record was playing and the analog was being captured and converted to digital and then played back and compared and contrasted at the same time to the record being played.

    A first Japanese Pressing of Pink Floyd’s DSOTM was used as the source. An all analog recording and pressing at the time.

    What the test showed, was that even at the highest sample rate (24/192 in this case), there was still quite a bit of information on the record that was not being converted to digital. It was being truncated. Moreover, it was clear to me and everyone there (AJ may disagree, but at the time, pictures of his face show otherwise!) that the vinyl was clearly superior sonically and the data didn’t lie. There was information on the record that could not be captured by the Pure Vinyl. At the time, 24/192 was the highest level we could imagine. Would that change with a much higher bit/sample rate? I don’t know.

    Prior to the experiment, the digital only guys argued that we couldn’t hear above 16/44, but what the test showed and my notes clearly indicate was that there were indeed sonic cues, air, ambience and more that was being truncated by the digital file even at it’s highest sampling rate.

    I think it could be argued that in 2016, software, ADC’s and the like might not have been at the level they are today and the results today might be different, especially with higher sample rates.

    But in the end, this very old technology of a needle in a groove still produces fabulous sound and fun for millions of people around the world.
    I would love to see this re-done and recorded in DSD, preferably DSD256 or above. I bet the results would be much closer. I have had some great and very informative conversations with David Elias. A wonderful artist but also into tech. He previous worked for tech companies.

    He was a very early adopter of digital, especially DSD. He believes in no uncertain terms that DSD is much more analog sounding. He also now understands why DSD256 and DSD512 sound even better. He is also a huge advocate of MQA for streaming and portable use, but he believes DSD sounds better. He came to these beliefs being one of the first artist to release his albums recorded in DSD. He was also one of the very first to release his catalog in MQA.
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  11. #509
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dre_J View Post
    I think you have added more information for those reading.
    I am glad you think that's the case.

    However, it still appears you have added support to my comment you replied to:

    "If the former, I could possibly understand. If it's the later, I have observed different outcomes that depends on a few variables. Experience tells me it is usually up to the process of how the track was transferred to the medium(s)."
    Undoubtedly that plays a role, yes.

    On a final note: If you want to know my general thoughts on the original question posed by Mike, you can see it earlier in the thread here: https://www.audioshark.org/showthrea...l=1#post276766
    Thank you for the link.
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  12. #510
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    Re: Why no turntable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The event that AJ referenced above was on May 22, 2016.
    No Mike, the real time ADA level matched switching was maybe 2 years back, held at a Hillsborough County library. I do recall that event at Barts, that was vinyl ripping. That Channel D (?) is pretty neat software.
    My event, there is no recording, its all live LP playback, straight vs a ADA looped version

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