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  1. #1
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    MSB new pricing model

    I've heard they are getting rid of the options and including more for less $$. Is this true?

    If so, this is disappointing for existing owners as the cost to upgrade doesn't make sense vs. new model pricing.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  2. #2
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    I also heard something about new pricing.
    Jim

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  3. #3
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    It’s hard to know what exactly they’ve done with their pricing since they no longer display it.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
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  4. #4

    MSB new pricing model

    Well, maybe they have discovered that charging 2K for a $50,- connector, which pretty much all other manufacturers are including as a standard, does not excite customers as much as they thought.

    Especially, emergence of category killer products with a top feature set, such as the dCS Bartók or Meitner MA-3, is causing their proposition to lose some of it’s attractiveness.

    Their products remain top shelve, but the market is a function of all the offers out there.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

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  5. #5
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    _______________

    Mike

  6. #6
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    It's good to hear they might be lowering their pricing to be more realistic. For a fully optioned MSB Select stack that sounded great mind you when I heard it in 2019 and was
    obviously very well constructed, they were effectively eclipsing the price of a full 4-box Esoteric P1X and D1X transport and dual-mono DAC stack, arguably one of the finest offerings
    with measured longevity and maturity in the industry which as a matter of personal opinion only, did not add up at all.

    Same point for the $140K+ Wadax Reference DAC. Despite it's amazing the sound, the price just seems, at least to me for a DAC, ridiculous.
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Diamond & Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata OMEGA Q4R & SIGMA v2 power cables, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45CS2 & AV45CS1, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS. Ultra Bases

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  7. #7
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    MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by SCAudiophile View Post
    It's good to hear they might be lowering their pricing to be more realistic. For a fully optioned MSB Select stack that sounded great mind you when I heard it in 2019 and was
    obviously very well constructed, they were effectively eclipsing the price of a full 4-box Esoteric P1X and D1X transport and dual-mono DAC stack, arguably one of the finest offerings
    with measured longevity and maturity in the industry which as a matter of personal opinion only, did not add up at all.

    Same point for the $140K+ Wadax Reference DAC. Despite it's amazing the sound, the price just seems, at least to me for a DAC, ridiculous.
    Details will be coming, but yes, it’s about simplifying options and removing options which were never (or rarely) selected by the customer. Discrete will remain unchanged. The Premier will see some nice more popular options included and a price drop. Details are still being worked out.

    As for the Wadax, I heard it at Munich. Wasn’t my cup of tea. I think you’ve mentioned the top two in my books.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

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  8. #8
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Details will be coming, but yes, it’s about simplifying options and removing options which were never (or rarely) selected by the customer. Discrete will remain unchanged. The Premier will see some nice more popular options included and a price drop. Details are still being worked out.
    I hope MSB provides existing owners an upgrade path.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  9. #9
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Details will be coming, but yes, it’s about simplifying options and removing options which were never (or rarely) selected by the customer. Discrete will remain unchanged. The Premier will see some nice more popular options included and a price drop. Details are still being worked out.

    As for the Wadax, I heard it at Munich. Wasn’t my cup of tea. I think you’ve mentioned the top two in my books.
    Any chance of the Premier with the Preamp Output option?
    Amps: Devialet E440's (L/R), Classe Sigma Amp5 (C/LR/RR), NAD M17 V2 SSP
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  10. #10
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    Any chance of the Premier with the Preamp Output option?
    That’s reserved for the Ref and Select II. But using the standard VC on the Premier isn’t a bad option!


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  11. #11

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    If MSB lowers the retail of the pieces I have there better be a check in the mail from MSB to make up the difference.
    Also, I as well as many other MSB buyers most likely bought with the consideration of all the flexibility the modules offered. If they decide to get rid of some they better send each owner one of each module that's going away or at minimum keep enough of them for every piece already sold in case that owner wants a particular module in the future.

    You can't sell a product on the fact of no obsolescence, extreme flexibility, and future proof and then change direction and believe current customers will accept it.......

  12. #12

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If MSB lowers the retail of the pieces I have there better be a check in the mail from MSB to make up the difference.
    Also, I as well as many other MSB buyers most likely bought with the consideration of all the flexibility the modules offered. If they decide to get rid of some they better send each owner one of each module that's going away or at minimum keep enough of them for every piece already sold in case that owner wants a particular module in the future.

    You can't sell a product on the fact of no obsolescence, extreme flexibility, and future proof and then change direction and believe current customers will accept it.......
    I always cast a jaundiced eye toward claims that any electronic device is “future proof.” Hopefully MSB is going to keep their initial customers who jumped in with both feet happy.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  13. #13
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If MSB lowers the retail of the pieces I have there better be a check in the mail from MSB to make up the difference.

    You can't sell a product on the fact of no obsolescence, extreme flexibility, and future proof and then change direction and believe current customers will accept it.......
    +1. It means I'm done with MSB, by default. Why would I pay $5k for say the upgraded clock, that puts my total Premier cost over that of a new one. And if the "solution" is to trade in a less valuable unit for an even more expensive Ref (which now includes the big options for $50k+) that makes it even worse.

    I've told my dealer this as well.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  14. #14

    MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    +1. It means I'm done with MSB, by default. Why would I pay $5k for say the upgraded clock, that puts my total Premier cost over that of a new one. And if the "solution" is to trade in a less valuable unit for an even more expensive Ref (which now includes the big options for $50k+) that makes it even worse.

    I've told my dealer this as well.
    Is this “solution” proposed by MSB? Or just a rumor or something your dealer suggested? But, wow! MSB new pricing model

    MSB got a mess on their hands. The culprit to me is they wanted to charge a ton with different options (tried to follow Porsche options model lol) but it didn’t take off as much as they thought it would. Now, they wanted to change the direction and there’s just not a way that can satisfy everyone.

  15. #15
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    Wink Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If MSB lowers the retail of the pieces I have there better be a check in the mail from MSB to make up the difference.
    Also, I as well as many other MSB buyers most likely bought with the consideration of all the flexibility the modules offered. If they decide to get rid of some they better send each owner one of each module that's going away
    I’m sure your check and modules are being readied now.

  16. #16
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    some highest end digital gear has lost a bit of its value after time. what a scandal!!
    look at shunyata, how mean they are. offereing the sigma1 under the alpha2 label now (half price and even added some goodies) CONSPIRACY!!!!
    i bed they planned this with the rothschilds.

  17. #17
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    some highest end digital gear has lost a bit of its value after time. what a scandal!!
    look at shunyata, how mean they are. offereing the sigma1 under the alpha2 label now (half price and even added some goodies) CONSPIRACY!!!!
    i bed they planned this with the rothschilds.
    Nothing changes faster in audio than digital. It just keeps getting better and better.

    As for any conspiracy, I have both Sigma V1 and Alpha V2. Two totally different cables sonically, size wise too.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  18. #18

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Is this “solution” proposed by MSB? Or just a rumor or something your dealer suggested? But, wow! MSB new pricing model

    MSB got a mess on their hands. The culprit to me is they wanted to charge a ton with different options (tried to follow Porsche options model lol) but it didn’t take off as much as they thought it would. Now, they wanted to change the direction and there’s just not a way that can satisfy everyone.
    I never felt MSB "charged a ton" for different options. U want them then get them. Don't want them you don't pay for them because they aren't already onboard. A win for the buyer. In fact I think they offered a discount on options ordered on initial build....

  19. #19

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by vortrex View Post
    I’m sure your check and modules are being readied now.
    Appreciate your awesome and considered insight.....

  20. #20
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    some highest end digital gear has lost a bit of its value after time. what a scandal!!
    look at shunyata, how mean they are. offereing the sigma1 under the alpha2 label now (half price and even added some goodies) CONSPIRACY!!!!
    i bed they planned this with the rothschilds.
    Congratulations. You made it just under the wire. It only took 'till the 27th of December to make one of the worst posts of the year.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
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    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
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  21. #21

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritmo View Post
    Mike, could you please pass me some of that popcorn of yours?


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    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

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    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

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  22. #22

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    I hope MSB provides existing owners an upgrade path.
    Like what? Do you have an example? Perhaps one for your situation?

  23. #23

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If MSB lowers the retail of the pieces I have there better be a check in the mail from MSB to make up the difference...
    Why? Do you feel your purchase wasn't worth the price you paid when you bought it?

  24. #24
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    Congratulations. You made it just under the wire. It only took 'till the 27th of December to make one of the worst posts of the year.
    so dont you think msb should have avoided improvements to protect theyr customers?

  25. #25
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by u-sound View Post
    so dont you think msb should have avoided improvements to protect theyr customers?
    I think that many people would find the last line in your post offensive.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
    Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
    Digital: dCS Vivaldi DAC, Clock & Upsampler
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    Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
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  26. #26
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    well sorry if you cant see the joke

  27. #27

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Dre_J View Post
    Why? Do you feel your purchase wasn't worth the price you paid when you bought it?
    U and the like posters miss the whole point. If MSB diminishes the value of what was previously bought by lowering the price you are damn right I'll be pissed

    And I'd expect the dealer I bought the MSB from to back me with MSB to protect the value of what I bought.....

    Mike really poor form u added a like to the above post.....

  28. #28
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    If MSB diminishes the value of what was previously bought by lowering the price you are damn right I'll be pissed.
    Me too.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases and Femto 33 Clock; Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus; MSB UMT V Signature Transport
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps; MSB M204 Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  29. #29
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    I can understand and respect everyone’s concern. I own a Select II as well. But let’s just all be patient until we know the details of the changes. I don’t know the specifics myself.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, EMM Labs, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  30. #30

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    High end audio could use lower prices for higher performance. Not really feeling sorry for those who paid higher prices, but I know, it would stink and sting. Not the first time we've seen "new lower price"
    Analog: VPI Aries 3, custom isolation/Magnetically stabilized JMW 10.5i/Ortofon A90/Modded & shielded Pass XP-25 Digital: Spectral 3000SL/Heavily modded Alpha DAC Amplification: Spectral DMC-30SV/DMA-500AR Speakers: Heavily modded MartinLogan (custom Mundorf xover, cabling, woofers; structural mods)/Modded REL Cabling: Shielded MIT Oracle 50ic,MA-X/Oracle 90.1 Power: Shunyata Denali 6000/S V2; Venom V10/V12 XC and NR cords, Typhon

  31. #31

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    U and the like posters miss the whole point. If MSB diminishes the value of what was previously bought by lowering the price you are damn right I'll be pissed

    And I'd expect the dealer I bought the MSB from to back me with MSB to protect the value of what I bought.....

    Mike really poor form u added a like to the above post.....
    I don't know who "the like" are and I don't know what they are/were thinking. I asked a legitimate question and Mike probably also took it as such. That's probably why he liked the post. He at least knows me enough to know stirring a pot isn't my method of operation. I know I thought it was legitimate.

    From what was communicated in this thread to date, there is no real information except for the rumors and rumored changes. Right now, the rumors are a nothing burger. Why get in a huff over something that is unsubstantiated rumors with no concrete information as of yet?

    The logic that one should get back money for an unknown price structure change (after enjoying the product for over a year or more?) makes little sense to me: it makes no more sense than the reverse situation of a price increase requiring one to give MSB and the dealer more money after purchase.

    IMO: The value is in the products performance and owner satisfaction. If a new pricing structure is all it takes for someone to get upset, I don't know what to say. You've had the product, and I presume, have enjoyed it for the time you've had it and thought the outlay was worth the ask. A rumored price structure adjustment shouldn't change that.

    Getting back to my question: I simply asked a version of the question regarding if you felt the purchase wasn't worth the price you paid when you bought it. It was a simple and reasonable question. The answer you provided helps give perspective. If anything, you've said your piece about something that hasn't even happened as of this writing. Thanks for answering the question.

    General thoughts not directed at anyone in particular: Very few, if any, audio products retain or increase in value. I certainly don't buy with the thought of getting a return on an audio product purchase. I don't see it as a financial investment. The return on investment, for me, is the enjoyment the product brings with use.

    Dre

  32. #32
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    MSB new pricing model

    I was liking your post because I was pleased to see you actually posting! Of course my suggestion is “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, but if there are discussions around the Premier and dropping some of the other lower clocks, who am I to argue? What will happen to the Discrete? Nothing. Ref and select? I don’t know if anything. I probably know about the discussions as much as Keith’s dealer knows.

    I wasn’t even bringing this up because there was nothing really concrete to discuss, but Keith’s dealer I suspect mentioned something (hence his opening post) and here we are with everyone in a huff over rumors.

    Let’s just wait and see.


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  33. #33

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I was liking your post because I was pleased to see you actually posting!
    Manufacturer affiliation, or why?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  34. #34
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Mike, could you please pass me some of that popcorn of yours?


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  35. #35
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    Manufacturer affiliation, or why?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, EMM Labs, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  36. #36
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Several years ago Luxman dropped the US MRSP on their top line 900 stack from $20K to $15K as they took more direct control over the distribution of their products in the US. (There were probably similar adjustments for other products, but I wasn't paying attention.) Should Luxman have kept the prices where they were or passed along the savings to prospective future buyers? Would your answer be different if the reduction had resulted from increased manufacturing efficiency or a need to meet competition with more competitive prices after the product had been on the market for a couple of years? Personally I find Luxman's action more customer focused than what I see some others do: Raise prices a year or two after introduction or after the first positive reviews juice the market.

  37. #37

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    U and the like posters miss the whole point. If MSB diminishes the value of what was previously bought by lowering the price you are damn right I'll be pissed

    And I'd expect the dealer I bought the MSB from to back me with MSB to protect the value of what I bought.....

    Mike really poor form u added a like to the above post.....
    Can you explain what "protect the value of what I bought" means and exactly how your dealer could force MSB to "protect" your "value"?

    Some people confuse spending large sums of money on audio gear with actually investing money and expecting to see a return on your investment. When you purchase audio gear, you are buying a depreciating asset just like when you purchase a new car. Depreciating assets continue to lose value until they reach the bottom of what the market is willing to pay. Sometimes the speed of the fall to the bottom is quite rapid. The original Raidho company would be a good example of that. We have a member here that sold his Raidho speakers that cost over $200k new and he couldn't get $20k for them when he sold them.

    It's very expensive to purchase audio gear that purports to be on the bleeding edge of technology and there is no guarantee of any current piece of audio gear retaining a certain percentage of the initial purchase price over any length of time. That's the nature of purchasing depreciating assets and the longer you hold on to them, the less they are worth on the used market.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

  38. #38
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Can you explain what "protect the value of what I bought" means and exactly how your dealer could force MSB to "protect" your "value"?

    Some people confuse spending large sums of money on audio gear with actually investing money and expecting to see a return on your investment. When you purchase audio gear, you are buying a depreciating asset just like when you purchase a new car. Depreciating assets continue to lose value until they reach the bottom of what the market is willing to pay. Sometimes the speed of the fall to the bottom is quite rapid. The original Raidho company would be a good example of that. We have a member here that sold his Raidho speakers that cost over $200k new and he couldn't get $20k for them when he sold them.

    It's very expensive to purchase audio gear that purports to be on the bleeding edge of technology and there is no guarantee of any current piece of audio gear retaining a certain percentage of the initial purchase price over any length of time. That's the nature of purchasing depreciating assets and the longer you hold on to them, the less they are worth on the used market.
    I couldn't agree with you more, mep. This audio hobby has turned out to be a very bad investment. But it's what we love.

    In the late 80's, I purchased a complete Meridian surround sound system (D6000s/D5000s/SSP/DVD) for around $46K. I sold it for $7K. I recently sold a pair of Devialet D400's for less than $5K that I paid $18K for. And Shunyata just introduced the Everest for less money than I paid for my Triton V3.

    If you buy new, losing money is just a reality.
    Amps: Devialet E440's (L/R), Classe Sigma Amp5 (C/LR/RR), NAD M17 V2 SSP
    Sources: Innuos Zenith Mk III (Roon Core), Paul Pang Enet Switch w/ LPSU, Oppo BDP-103D
    Speakers: Magnepan 3.7i, Magnepan CCR/DWM, Magnepan 1.7i (Rears), REL S5 w/ Longbow (w/ ifi iPowerX)
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  39. #39
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    the uncommon thing here might be that the devaluation was rather due pricestructur than a new model.
    to me, that is actually much milder for the current owners. (new model=big loose)

    and lets face it, msb has to do something about theyr prices. my dealer couldnt sell a single unit. and it was only about the price.
    his comment was that he prefers msb over dsc by a hair only (select2 vs vivaldi)

  40. #40

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Can you explain what "protect the value of what I bought" means and exactly how your dealer could force MSB to "protect" your "value"?

    Some people confuse spending large sums of money on audio gear with actually investing money and expecting to see a return on your investment. When you purchase audio gear, you are buying a depreciating asset just like when you purchase a new car. Depreciating assets continue to lose value until they reach the bottom of what the market is willing to pay. Sometimes the speed of the fall to the bottom is quite rapid. The original Raidho company would be a good example of that. We have a member here that sold his Raidho speakers that cost over $200k new and he couldn't get $20k for them when he sold them.

    It's very expensive to purchase audio gear that purports to be on the bleeding edge of technology and there is no guarantee of any current piece of audio gear retaining a certain percentage of the initial purchase price over any length of time. That's the nature of purchasing depreciating assets and the longer you hold on to them, the less they are worth on the used market.
    Per usual you see posts in your small, limited myopic way and respond accordingly. Where did I say anything about investing and thinking audio gear is an investment??
    My point regarding protecting value was in reference to my dealer, who I think is one of if not the biggest MSB dealers in NA. I would think he would have some influence with MSB in regards to how they might be going forward with a pricing restructure and being hopeful that he would use that influence with them...

  41. #41
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Interesting dialog and perspectives; btw, many valid. I would suggest we wait until MSB officially communicates if and what price and component packaging changes are being implemented.

    Lastly, I would guess that Vince (MSB Sales Executive) has seen or been made aware of the feedback on this thread from MSB customers.
    _______________

    Mike

  42. #42

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post

    You can't sell a product on the fact of no obsolescence, extreme flexibility, and future proof and then change direction and believe current customers will accept it.......

    Ever heard of Devialet??

    Audiophile on paper, poor bastard in reality...

    Dell desktop / JRiver / Arcam rDac / Pro-Ject Essential II Digital / NAD C 315 BEE / Totem Arro / Blue Jeans Cables

  43. #43
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    Ever heard of Devialet??

    Hi SimpleSimonSays,

    Why do you say that about Devialet?
    Amps: Devialet E440's (L/R), Classe Sigma Amp5 (C/LR/RR), NAD M17 V2 SSP
    Sources: Innuos Zenith Mk III (Roon Core), Paul Pang Enet Switch w/ LPSU, Oppo BDP-103D
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  44. #44

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    Hi SimpleSimonSays,

    Why do you say that about Devialet?

    When they came out with their first product ever, the D-Premier, a long time ago, they promised the sun, the moon + their first born... and didn't quite delivered...

    If I remember correctly, when the D-Premier came out, it was 16/44.1 wireless only but they had an update coming soon for their unique patented wireless asynchronous up to 24/192 and it never worked properly or happened even (I think!)... Back then, 24/192 wireless was new and a big deal! All you had to do was buy a Mac Mini + Devialet and get perfect sound forever. Sounds familiar? The DevialetChat forum was full of pissed customers... Everything worked but wired only... Not what was promised...

    The D-Premier had a lot of "patented" revolutionary unique features that were supposed to be updated free of charge... not quite what happened in reality. And when they finally updated their "core" it wasn't free...

    Don't get me wrong, the D-Premier sounded great from day 1 (and probably still does today) but the marketing hype was waaay too good to be true...

    I have a feeling that nowadays Devialet is becoming a Bose type company in Apple clothing more interested in $$$ than actual sound. Their "Expert" line hasn't had an significant (read forward thinking) update in a long time.

    It is a pretty expensive pizza box after all!

    Audiophile on paper, poor bastard in reality...

    Dell desktop / JRiver / Arcam rDac / Pro-Ject Essential II Digital / NAD C 315 BEE / Totem Arro / Blue Jeans Cables

  45. #45
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    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by SimpleSimonSays View Post
    When they came out with their first product ever, the D-Premier, a long time ago, they promised the sun, the moon + their first born... and didn't quite delivered...

    If I remember correctly, when the D-Premier came out, it was 16/44.1 wireless only but they had an update coming soon for their unique patented wireless asynchronous up to 24/192 and it never worked properly or happened even (I think!)... Back then, 24/192 wireless was new and a big deal! All you had to do was buy a Mac Mini + Devialet and get perfect sound forever. Sounds familiar? The DevialetChat forum was full of pissed customers... Everything worked but wired only... Not what was promised...

    The D-Premier had a lot of "patented" revolutionary unique features that were supposed to be updated free of charge... not quite what happened in reality. And when they finally updated their "core" it wasn't free...

    Don't get me wrong, the D-Premier sounded great from day 1 (and probably still does today) but the marketing hype was waaay too good to be true...

    I have a feeling that nowadays Devialet is becoming a Bose type company in Apple clothing more interested in $$$ than actual sound. Their "Expert" line hasn't had an significant (read forward thinking) update in a long time.

    It is a pretty expensive pizza box after all!

    Hi SimpleSimonSays,

    No, a very expensive pizza box, but what a pizza! I started out with the D400's and moved on to the E440's, and it didn't cost me a dime. Not even shipping costs. And I'm a nobody and have no connections. I have never experienced customer service of the caliber of Devialet...in any consumer product. They are truly exceptional, and make an amazing product. Please see my post from Oct 25th on this forum (Devialet's Awesome Customer Service). In summary, Devialet replaced my D400's with new E440's, then upgraded my original E440's four years later, all at zero cost to me! Customer service at its finest!

    When I purchased my D400's in 2015, those pizza boxes replaced an Aesthetix Calypso preamp, a large two-box Lampizator DAC (DAC + tube PS in separate large, utilitarian black boxes), and mono Brown Electronic Labs amps. I was then using an Auralic Aries streamer and a QNAP server, since replaced by an Innuos Zenith Mk III. It was too much gear in our family room. I now have have two very cool looking, lightweight, great sounding and svelte pizza boxes in place of the Calypso, Lampi and BEL's.

    If you read my Devialet post, you'll see that my experience with Devialet is very different from what you've read on other forums. I can only tell you about my personal experience. Saying all that, I'm tiring somewhat of a completely integrated amp/DAC, but not specifically because it's Devialet. We'll be relocating in 2021, and I'm moving back again to a more traditional arrangement. If all goes as planned, top contenders are an MSB DAC, MSB amp and Vivid G2 speakers. I wouldn't bash Devialet too much unless you've had some personal negative experience. I just wanted to share my positive one. Have a great week!
    Amps: Devialet E440's (L/R), Classe Sigma Amp5 (C/LR/RR), NAD M17 V2 SSP
    Sources: Innuos Zenith Mk III (Roon Core), Paul Pang Enet Switch w/ LPSU, Oppo BDP-103D
    Speakers: Magnepan 3.7i, Magnepan CCR/DWM, Magnepan 1.7i (Rears), REL S5 w/ Longbow (w/ ifi iPowerX)
    Power: Shunyata Triton V3, (6) Dedicated 20-amp Outlets
    Cabling: Shunyata Power, WireWorld Enet & HDMI, Cardas I/C's, Light Harmonic USB
    Racks/Footers: Box Furniture Co Custom Rack, Symposium RollerBlocks, Voodoo Iso-Pods, Herbie's Audio Lab (many)

  46. #46

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    To me, the question is whether MSB is going to charge less for the same product. If this is true, I think it is not fair to the previous buyers who support them. I have no problems if they have a new product charging less like Shunyata's Everest. But charging less for the same product is not going to make it.

  47. #47

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    My reply does sound a bit less that stellar but it wasn't meant as bashing. I was just reacting to one comment about future proofing and flexibility and promises... and felt that Devialet oversell in the marketing at first but didn't quite delivered... That's all.

    As I said, every time I heard the Expert line, I always thought It sounded great (to the point of thinking why pay more?) and that shiny pizza box look is gorgeous! The universal amazing reviews we're right for once! Maybe the hype was too high at first...?

    That said, I feel that a lot of first wave Devialet customers might feel that the Phantom line speakers somewhat devaluate the brand (and feel that ressources we're taken away from the Expert line)... even though, like someone said earlier, audio, like cars, loose their value the minute you open the box... pizza or otherwise!

    I am very happy that you have only praise for Devialet and that your experience was pristine as It should always be at those prices. At any prices actually! Alas, browsing the DevialetChat forum, It wasn't the case for quite some time and for too many members... and that is a bit the spirit of this topic. Promises versus reality.

    Will MSB lowering their prices devaluate the brand?
    Audiophile on paper, poor bastard in reality...

    Dell desktop / JRiver / Arcam rDac / Pro-Ject Essential II Digital / NAD C 315 BEE / Totem Arro / Blue Jeans Cables

  48. #48

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    To me, the question is whether MSB is going to charge less for the same product. If this is true, I think it is not fair to the previous buyers who support them. I have no problems if they have a new product charging less like Shunyata's Everest. But charging less for the same product is not going to make it.
    It’s also not fair to tell these previous buyers that they shouldn’t feel a thing if MSB ends up doing that (it’s mind boggling TBH, this is basic human nature and common sense). If there’s a Select II, Reference or even Premier owner that would be perfectly happy, I’d like to meet that gentleman or lady.

  49. #49

    MSB new pricing model

    When products get older, manufacturers reduce prices to keep up with the market. As simple as that.

    In the last year before release of a new car model, you’ll get full options for the price of the base model (at launch).

    Unfortunately, sales volume will drive the renewal cycle. And MSB put themselves in a tough spot with an optimistic pricing strategy.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    “Life’s too short to listen to bad audio.”

    Big rig: Brinkmann Taurus DD TT + 12.1 arm + Lyra Etna Lambda SL MC + HRS M3X2/ Cardas Clear Beyond phono/ Stillpoints LPI/ Soulution 520 preamp with phono/ Synology NAS with Roon + HD Plex linear PSU + Shunyata HD/ AQ Vodka RJ45 + Aqvox Network Switch SE + AQ Diamond RJ45 into DAC/ Brinkmann Nyquist MK II/ Soulution 511/ Cardas Clear Beyond ICs/ Semi-active Lansche Audio 4.2 LS/ Inakustik Reference LS 4004 AIR/ 2x Audioquest Thunder HD for LS/ Audioquest Niagara 5000/ Shunyata AlphaHC (x2)+Alpha+Alpha Analogue+Alpha Digital/ Finite Elemente Pagode/ Stillpoints Ultra SS.

    Small rig: Naim UnitiServe/ Curious USB/ Tidal/ Linn Klimax DS3/ Shunyata Power cable/ Pass Labs INT-60/ Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II/ HiD Diamond 8/ Harbeth 30.2 40th Anniversary/ Shunyata Venom EU7 & Venom 3 HD.

    HP rig: MacBookAir/ Tidal/ Auralic Gemini 2000/ Sbooster LPSU/ Audeze LCD-2 Classic + WyWires Red/ Shunyata HD/ Shunyata Hydra 2/ Shunyata Venom.

  50. #50

    Re: MSB new pricing model

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuoppis View Post
    When products get older, manufacturers reduce prices to keep up with the market. As simple as that.

    In the last year before release of a new car model, you’ll get full options for the price of the base model (at launch).

    Unfortunately, sales volume will drive the renewal cycle. And MSB put themselves in a tough spot with an optimistic pricing strategy.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    We are not talking about car industry here. More fair comparison is the other audio manufacturers. For example, MBL haven’t refreshed their Reference Line for a long time. But the prices keep increasing. I would be over the moon if MBL decreases the prices of 101X. Unfortunately, it is the opposite.

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MSB new pricing model

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