Are they going to destroy audio?

MichaelsMinute said:
I see you've taken the Steve Jobs approach of "you're holding it the wrong way".

Why is the ASR crowd so insistent they know better than our own ears what we like and don't like and they know better than us? So what if we hear things differently.

And to state again, this is NOT about Class D vs the world but the ASR/Class D people have tried to make it into that.
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WRT the Jobs thing, no, that's not what I'm up to here.

WRT ASR, you'll have to ask them. In case you think I'm only all about the measurements you're incorrect. I'm more in the Daniel Recklinghausen camp of 'if it measures well and sounds bad, its bad. If it measures poorly but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing.'

That is somewhere between the dug in heels of both the subjectivist and objectivist camps.

I'm not trying to say your ears don't work!

The reason I have class D amps in my system is because they sound better and nothing else. Keeping in mind of course that as a manufacturer I've been producing zero feedback class A triode fully differential and balanced OTLs for nearly 50 years. I know that's a mouthful but in a nutshell I did that because they sounded better than anything else I could get my hands on. Better than SETs (although they are not as romantic, being more neutral) better than ARC (not as dry,,,) and so on. Now I'm listening to a class D amp that sounds better than my triode amps and you're trying to make that out as if I'm straight off of ASR for a world tour?

Now here comes the technical bit that you may not like to hear. Carver hinted at this about 25-30 years ago. Its this: that 'sonic signature' you hear in your amp is its distortion signature. You might think that distortion isn't audible and if you do, you're playing right into the hands of the ASR folks despite your remonstrations. Distortion is nearly always audible (if the equipment isn't outright clipping) as a tonality. This is simply because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality. That ever-loving tube 'warmth' is caused by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics being able to mask higher orders. The dryness and harshness of solid state is those higher orders not masked.

Some of this stuff is measurable- but the ASR people so far as I've been able to make out haven't been able to sort out how the ear responds to distortion, so they don't realize its responsible for a 'sound'.

You can ignore this if you like. But its pretty obvious from some of the other posts here that you missed something or are intentionally ignoring it, and that thing has nothing to do with ASR.

So where I'm going with this is that if you have a tube amp with a certain distortion spectra, you can get another amp to sound just like it if you can get the same distortion spectra. The ASR people don't want to have any 'sound' at all but in my experience of 50 years or so, distortion is simply never going to go away, and I've come to the opinion that the ear is far more sensitive to it than anyone at ASR gives it credit for. But audiophiles that listen for a 'sound' already know that, they just don't know that the main thing causing that 'sound' is distortion whether the amp is tube or transistor.

So the class D amp I play has a distortion spectra that is very similar to that of our triode OTLs and as a result sounds a lot like them, but is more transparent (that's the big tell BTW) owing to lower overall distortion. I'm not from ASR. Don't shoot me.
 
atmasphere said:
WRT the Jobs thing, no, that's not what I'm up to here.

WRT ASR, you'll have to ask them. In case you think I'm only all about the measurements you're incorrect. I'm more in the Daniel Recklinghausen camp of 'if it measures well and sounds bad, its bad. If it measures poorly but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing.'

That is somewhere between the dug in heels of both the subjectivist and objectivist camps.

I'm not trying to say your ears don't work!

The reason I have class D amps in my system is because they sound better and nothing else. Keeping in mind of course that as a manufacturer I've been producing zero feedback class A triode fully differential and balanced OTLs for nearly 50 years. I know that's a mouthful but in a nutshell I did that because they sounded better than anything else I could get my hands on. Better than SETs (although they are not as romantic, being more neutral) better than ARC (not as dry,,,) and so on. Now I'm listening to a class D amp that sounds better than my triode amps and you're trying to make that out as if I'm straight off of ASR for a world tour?

Now here comes the technical bit that you may not like to hear. Carver hinted at this about 25-30 years ago. Its this: that 'sonic signature' you hear in your amp is its distortion signature. You might think that distortion isn't audible and if you do, you're playing right into the hands of the ASR folks despite your remonstrations. Distortion is nearly always audible (if the equipment isn't outright clipping) as a tonality. This is simply because the ear converts all forms of distortion into tonality. That ever-loving tube 'warmth' is caused by the 2nd and 3rd harmonics being able to mask higher orders. The dryness and harshness of solid state is those higher orders not masked.

Some of this stuff is measurable- but the ASR people so far as I've been able to make out haven't been able to sort out how the ear responds to distortion, so they don't realize its responsible for a 'sound'.

You can ignore this if you like. But its pretty obvious from some of the other posts here that you missed something or are intentionally ignoring it, and that thing has nothing to do with ASR.

So where I'm going with this is that if you have a tube amp with a certain distortion spectra, you can get another amp to sound just like it if you can get the same distortion spectra. The ASR people don't want to have any 'sound' at all but in my experience of 50 years or so, distortion is simply never going to go away, and I've come to the opinion that the ear is far more sensitive to it than anyone at ASR gives it credit for. But audiophiles that listen for a 'sound' already know that, they just don't know that the main thing causing that 'sound' is distortion whether the amp is tube or transistor.

So the class D amp I play has a distortion spectra that is very similar to that of our triode OTLs and as a result sounds a lot like them, but is more transparent (that's the big tell BTW) owing to lower overall distortion. I'm not from ASR. Don't shoot me.
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Hi - thanks for posting. I do appreciate it.

You keep on making this about class D amps and again I couldn't care less about class D amps as this is not about that.

I've explained what it is about multiple times and ways (including in my post you quote above) and you just can't seem to grasp what this is about. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to understand and don't know how to help you or be any more clear.

Thank you.
 
Honestly, this debate, that got kicked off on another site that's famous for such, to me resembles a debate on the importance of swatting a gnat vs. a fly on an elephant's ass. As always, YMMV.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
Hi Marty,

It's pretty simple - because they are acting just like them, and if you read the posts that kind of thinking is shared by some people here as well.

They don't care what WE hear or what WE like. They think they know better than us and proceed to lecture us how we can't possibly know what we like for ourselves. I mean, who thinks that way???

Look at some of these replies on this thread: they want to know where our engineering degree is from as if we need one to know what we like. Or they say if we DBT (an ASR thinking favorite) then we will see the error of our ways (as if they have any clue what we have and have not done). Or they say its our fault for not having heard the right class D amp, and if we do then we will be ok with them taking away our ability to choose what we like.

Then some of the replies on this thread openly admit they know better than us on what gear we should be allowed to own based on made up nonsense such as some imaginary made up "excessive watts" number? Or being told it will become anti-social to own a Class A amp (my favorite). Isn't that against everything this hobby is about - being TOLD what you will like and what you will be allowed to own? THAT is the issue I originally posted about.

But the Class D fanboys had to turn this into amp-class-warfare thread and couldn't simply respect some of us aren't fans of class D. I mean, the NERVE of us to have a differing opinion and wanting to save consumer choice! How dare we! LOL

There are a group of people that can't simply accept that others may have a differing opinion. I welcome anyone to buy any amp, or class of amp they like. It's that simple. I don't pretend to know what you will or won't like. Yet somehow wanting to be able to preserve that ability has upset a select few know-it-alls that can't respect other peoples likes. How very intolerant and anti-audio.
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Is that the royal "We"?
 
GSOphile said:
Honestly, this debate, that got kicked off on another site that's famous for such, to me resembles a debate on the importance of swatting a gnat vs. a fly on an elephant's ass. As always, YMMV.
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This was not my intention.

I was commenting as a Luxman fan regarding how Luxman killed off their Class A amps and how as an audiophile who values consumer choice is concerned.

Unfortunately the same people who ruined a normal discussion on the other site did the same here.

I apologize to the forum for my part in contributing to that. In hind sight there are responses and posts I could have responded to differently and I failed to take the high road. I own my actions in this thread.

My formal apologies to Mike and the members of this forum - even those I disagreed with on this thread. We all come here to enjoy audio discussion and not for drama.
 
Michael, I too shall chime in with my apology as well, both to you and the discussion here. We all (myself included) tend to get emotional on certain 'audio subjects' !
 
Mikado463 said:
Michael, I too shall chime in with my apology as well, both to you and the discussion here. We all (myself included) tend to get emotional on certain 'audio subjects' !
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Accepted and thank you! I can totally relate to getting too wrapped up in a discussion.
 
Facts and figures make for a better discussion. Subjective opinions without technical backup generally lead to controversy and waste of time.
 
Hear Here said:
But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.
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We actually do. MBL Noble amps and MBL Noble integrated and HiFi Rose RS520. In stock right now, ready to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
W9TR said:
If there are any A/V equipment energy directives in the works, they'll probably come from the EU.
The EU eco design directive is already impacting consumer product development.

The EU has published energy requirements for set top boxes, home networking equipment, external power supplies, and televisions, among others. There is some concern that these regulations for TV's will limit the sale of 8K and some 4K sets in EU.

We have for many years had rules on standby and off power consumption for audio and AV gear among many other consumer appliances.

This has driven design changes in a lot of audio equipment. One example is non-use power off timers, which are now required in most if not all amplifier products sold in the EU.

None of the external linear power supplies popular with audiophiles meet the EU requirements today. Not one. Yet they are openly sold. More on this later. **

It would be easy for regulators to set power consumption limits on AV and audio amplifiers and receivers.
These power limits could be written in such a way as to eliminate the sale of all Class A and AB amplifiers using standard linear power supplies. At their tightest, they may allow only Class D amps driven by switchmode power supplies. This would be easy to do as the efficiencies of all these amplifiers are well known in the art.

This, in turn, would cause audiophile heads to spontaneously explode globally, reducing the market for linear class A amplifiers to zero. Problem solved. :)

** In order to get the attention of regulators, the market has to be big enough to make a dent in consumption. High end audio is a tiny market.
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This is why this topic is kinda hard to discuss without involving politics in a way. It is no secret that the EU has been under a much tighter Grip of the WEF and the plans for the Green New Deal and the Great Reset. Someone in control says Dance, and those under their control and influence start twerking. Then they tell everyone else it's the best thing going.

I have one Class D Amp. It is the behemoth Lepai 20x20 that drives my Dynaudio 42s in my office. I did not seek out Class D but rather bought a cheap solution for my needs. In this installation, it is fine for what it is.

As far as the Power Consumption Argument goes, if people can afford to pay their Electric Bills, then they should be able to choose whatever they plug in. The Payments pay for others to have jobs and plants to be in business. Nobody should be allowed to Mandate that we all give up Class A or Tubes. If they want Class D, buy it and move on.

Buy the way, I will Offset my Electric Bills by driving a Gas Powered Car and not have to plug one in to eat up more electricity.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
Hi - thanks for posting. I do appreciate it.

You keep on making this about class D amps and again I couldn't care less about class D amps as this is not about that.

I've explained what it is about multiple times and ways (including in my post you quote above) and you just can't seem to grasp what this is about. I am sorry this is so difficult for you to understand and don't know how to help you or be any more clear.

Thank you.
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I'm not having trouble with the understanding thing as far as I can tell. My point was simply that audio won't be destroyed if class A amps go away because there are already class D amps that sound better. I would have thought that obvious from my prior posts, although it probably did require a bit of reading between the lines.

Put another way its OK that class A amps go away. Class A is used to increase the linearity of the amplifier, which is important if the circuit is incapable of supporting the feedback really needed to make it linear. FWIW the semiconductors needed to really do that didn't exist until sometime in the 1990s. But few designers have sorted out how to really use them such that they don't get into trouble with some technical/engineering stuff that it sounds like you're not interested in hearing about. If I'm wrong about that just say so and I can get into the issues facing them.

You can look at this another way, being an advocate of internal combustion: A long time ago side valves were used in cars and motorbikes. They went away because something better came along- the overhead valve, which allowed for greater compression ratio and thus greater power and efficiency. My old Indian 841 was a good example- 750cc displacement and only got 20 miles/gallon, whereas my MotoGuzzi with 850cc gets more like 45mpg and has a whole lot more torque and power at the same time.

Class A is like that. Its not gone yet, but we are witnessing a transition in audio as designers learn the new techniques (for example, how to make class D sound better). So in a very real way, while you claim that class D has nothing to do with the slow demise of class A, class D is the elephant in the room.

The simple fact of the matter is class D has been coming for a long time (it was originally proposed in the 1950s when tubes were King; FWIW your stance about destroying audio has a lot in common with the lamentations of tube advocates...). Its now arriving at the point where any amplifier manufacturer (like Luxman) who doesn't get the class D thing figured out is doing so at their own risk. For this same reason, tube power amps are also on borrowed time as class A and AB amps are.
 
atmasphere said:
I'm not having trouble with the understanding thing as far as I can tell. My point was simply that audio won't be destroyed if class A amps go away because there are already class D amps that sound better. I would have thought that obvious from my prior posts, although it probably did require a bit of reading between the lines.

Put another way its OK that class A amps go away. Class A is used to increase the linearity of the amplifier, which is important if the circuit is incapable of supporting the feedback really needed to make it linear. FWIW the semiconductors needed to really do that didn't exist until sometime in the 1990s. But few designers have sorted out how to really use them such that they don't get into trouble with some technical/engineering stuff that it sounds like you're not interested in hearing about. If I'm wrong about that just say so and I can get into the issues facing them.

You can look at this another way, being an advocate of internal combustion: A long time ago side valves were used in cars and motorbikes. They went away because something better came along- the overhead valve, which allowed for greater compression ratio and thus greater power and efficiency. My old Indian 841 was a good example- 750cc displacement and only got 20 miles/gallon, whereas my MotoGuzzi with 850cc gets more like 45mpg and has a whole lot more torque and power at the same time.

Class A is like that. Its not gone yet, but we are witnessing a transition in audio as designers learn the new techniques (for example, how to make class D sound better). So in a very real way, while you claim that class D has nothing to do with the slow demise of class A, class D is the elephant in the room.

The simple fact of the matter is class D has been coming for a long time (it was originally proposed in the 1950s when tubes were King; FWIW your stance about destroying audio has a lot in common with the lamentations of tube advocates...). Its now arriving at the point where any amplifier manufacturer (like Luxman) who doesn't get the class D thing figured out is doing so at their own risk. For this same reason, tube power amps are also on borrowed time as class A and AB amps are.
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All of that makes sense. However the issue with Class A is the greenies are coming up with arbitrary and made up numbers as to why Class A and other electronics are "evil". It is completely random based on numbers they make up out of thin air "oh...this many of watts we arbitrarily decide it too much".

Do you really think they will stop with Class A amps or whatever arbitrary numbers they come up with this time?

What happens when they come for Class D because they it's time for new arbitrary numbers? At what point do we simply say leave us alone and they should focus on more pressing issues such as them flying all over the world on their own private jets?

You are looking at this logically and assuming their appetite can be fulfilled. Based on their history and past actions, that is never the case. Where will it stop?
 
MichaelsMinute said:
All of that makes sense. However the issue with Class A is the greenies are coming up with arbitrary and made up numbers as to why Class A and other electronics are "evil". It is completely random based on numbers they make up out of thin air "oh...this many of watts we arbitrarily decide it too much".

Do you really think they will stop with Class A amps or whatever arbitrary numbers they come up with this time?

What happens when they come for Class D because they it's time for new arbitrary numbers? At what point do we simply say leave us alone and they should focus on more pressing issues such as them flying all over the world on their own private jets?

You are looking at this logically and assuming their appetite can be fulfilled. Based on their history and past actions, that is never the case. Where will it stop?
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I've been doing this for a while and not heard anything about how much power an amplifier can or can't draw!

AFAIK its not a concern at all. Keep in mind that when it comes to power draw, our OTLs are the King. If we make an amp that puts out as much power as your class A amp, I can guarantee our amp draws more power. Yet we've not heard anything about restrictions in that regard. If it were one of our overseas distributors would have mentioned something (its far more likely for something like that to occur overseas than it ever would be here!) by now.

What you are seeing is manufacturers waking up to the fact that they are going to get left behind if they don't figure out class D. Power draw has nothing to do with it either. It has entirely to do with economics.
 
atmasphere said:
What you are seeing is manufacturers waking up to the fact that they are going to get left behind if they don't figure out class D. Power draw has nothing to do with it either. It has entirely to do with economics.
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Could that be the real reason behind Luxman's decision, but rather than say that they went with the Green Agenda?
 
The war in Ukraine was a wake up call for tube electronics manufacturers. Those companies that solely rely on Russian tubes must be sweating.

Some are focusing on Class D now I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Shadowfax said:
It won't stop until we get rid of the WEF and UN and a few other organizations trying to dictate how the world should be.
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Don't worry, you won't get a knock on your door from the Eco Police coming to confiscate and crush your non-eco amps. Keep them going until they eventually die, or until your fuel bill forces you to ditch them. Just bear in mind that buying a replacement may require you to actually listen to Class D and to choose from the abundant different "voices" available, some of which will be as close to what you had before as to be undiscernible.

Or perhaps the Eco Police will come knocking! :lol:
 
Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me. The posts defy logic. :disbelief: Some posters have lost all civility. Some completely ignore the fact that their actions have consequences for others not just now but for decades. What is the world going to look like in our decedents lifetimes?

Of course the title of the thread was an open invitation to chaos and verbal battles.

I have added two more Sharks to my ignore list. The total is now 3.:(
 
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