Are they going to destroy audio?

Dizzie said:
Audio Shark also needs a "Dislike this post" icon. Some of the posts here are so wildly devoid of facts and reality they scare me.
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If only posts based on provable facts were allowed on this forum, then not a single person would be allowed to post on virtually anything other than specs and stating the price of gear. What's the point of that kind of forum?
 
Shadowfax said:
Could that be the real reason behind Luxman's decision, but rather than say that they went with the Green Agenda?
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Well the simple fact is that a class D requires less energy to build since it uses less materials. They are also a lot more energy efficient so they are more 'green' but 'Green Agenda' sounds political to me so I very much doubt they did that.
 
Mike said:
The war in Ukraine was a wake up call for tube electronics manufacturers. Those companies that solely rely on Russian tubes must be sweating.

Some are focusing on Class D now I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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FWIW dept.: in our case we launched our class D project about 6 1/2 years ago. That was because I heard some class D amps that really were not sounding bad at all.
 
atmasphere said:
Well the simple fact is that a class D requires less energy to build since it uses less materials. They are also a lot more energy efficient so they are more 'green' but 'Green Agenda' sounds political to me so I very much doubt they did that.
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So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
 
Shadowfax said:
So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
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I think you need to re-do your homework! Look at (for example) Atmosphere's OTL prices compared with his Class D prices. I think you'll see that ecomonies of production ARE reflected in selling price.

Others who offer only Class D (such as NAD) sell at prices that similarly excellent sounding Class A or tube amps could only dream of.
 
Shadowfax said:
So less energy and less materials means cheaper to manufacture but no big price drop. Not too many companies say that out loud in any industry.
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Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.
 
Great seeing you are creating your own circuitry for the Class D amps. Are you using SMPS or Linear PS? Sorry to deviate from topic.


atmasphere said:
Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.
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How much are your Class D mono's? I didn't find it on your site. Looked like they are only 100 watts, is that right?

I really think you over estimate the importance and performance of Class D.



atmasphere said:
Our class D is one of our least expensive amps despite being (IMO) possibly our best sounding. Its price like all our products is priced to a formula. Most of its cost arises from the chassis, which is usually the most expensive part of any amplifier. In our case it is built rugged enough to survive UPS and FedEx treatment while supporting a power transformer of some weight. FWIW compared to our tube amplifier that makes similar power its about a quarter of the cost.

FWIW with most of the changes the industry has seen after WW2, the transition from field coils to permanent magnets, from triodes to pentodes, from tubes to transistors, from analog to digital and yes from traditional amplification to class D has been mostly about economics. In most cases, there was little reduction in price despite the fact that the new tech was cheaper to build (and not always better; field coils for example are still the best magnets to use in a loudspeaker).

So that's the norm; rejoice when it doesn't happen.
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nicoff said:
Yes! where will it stop?
I miss the smell of leaded gasoline! I'm sure some radical organization got it banned for some crazy reason. :rolleyes:
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You may find interesting the widely accepted legal concept of "slippery slope". Interesting that you are comparing amplifiers to leaded gasoline.
 
This is a fascinating thread.

The designer and manufacturer of some of the best amplifiers I have heard is saying that Class D is as good as, if not better than their thermionic OTL offerings. Is this even rational? Of course it is, because Ralph is an engineer and engineers with good ears advance the state of the art. Intellectual honesty is rare I the audio world. Thanks Ralph!

There is a political/conspiracy subtext which is really weird. Why be concerned about something so improbable that it is laughable, as proven by a category of audiophile product that should already be banned in EU but is alive and well and even thriving. That product is linear power supplies, which are believed to be audibly far superior to their switch mode counterparts, so much so that they are used to power devices whose first action is to take this linear glory and input it to…….you guessed it, a switch mode power supply!

“It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.
 
W9TR said:
“It is new, therefore we must reject it” seems to be alive and well.
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I'm an 'early adopter' in the consumer life cycle. I love new technology - except when I don't like how it sounds or works. Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?

If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious.
 
When I first started posting my ideas of 'sensible' on ASR I got so many posters twisting my comments to fit their arguments that it did get frustrating holding my ground until I was satisfied my points were clear. Along the way I blocked enough posters and enough blocked me that I can go there and post without getting into long winded repeats anymore.

To the OP's point I really enjoy my motorcycles and was terrified that euro 5 was going to neuter my favorite summer hobby. Somehow the manufacturers are making the bikes lighter and more powerful while reducing emissions and noise. Maybe as appliance laws tighten the hi end manufacturers will employ big pulsing brains that can make the class D amps sound like the the sound we.ve come to love from from a/ab amps? like a previous poster said Bob Carver could do it 25 or so years ago locking himself up in a hotel room for a couple days made his own amp sound identical to the Conrad Johnson submitted by stereophile staff.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
Aren't we well past the life cycle of class D being considered new technology? I think Mike mentioned its been out for like 20 years?
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It may be true (it is true) that Class D has been around for 20 years or so and it may be true (it is true) that 20 years ago (even maybe 10 years ago) it was pretty crap, but Class D is the only technology that has been genuinely improving over those last 20 years. It has now reached the stage that there's little valid reason (apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness ) not to accept this.

Did you buy a digital camera 30 years ago? I hope not as it was pretty crap compared with film. Would you buy a film camera now? I doubt it because digital has developed to the extent there is no need for film apart from nostalgia or pig-headedness. Where do you stand on digital photography?
 
Hear Here said:
Where do you stand on digital photography?
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You may want reread my entire post you quoted above as it may be helpful. Especially the sentence that reads "If anyone still thinks after reading all these posts that this is an anti-class D thread (especially people 'scared' of new stuff that is 20 years old technology) and not about the real issues that has been repeated multiple times, then they are choosing to ignore the obvious."

You will find no where is digital photography mentioned.

Edited to add: Trying to compare a MARKET driven advancement in technology with a completely arbitrary and devoid-of-any-facts greenie mandate again purposely misses the point that has been repeated multiple times in this thread.
 
Has anyone (consumer) actually heard the Atma-sphere Class D amps?

All I really have to add is that at Florida Expo, two of my favorite rooms were using class D amps - AGD and Aavik.

That said, I tried a (lower level) Aavik at home, and I preferred the Boulder I eventually bought. The Aavik sounded great, but I found the Boulder a bit more to my taste, but the Boulder was approx double the $. Maybe the higher Aavik would have competed better. But I also listened to other A, A/B amps I also didn’t like as much, so I don’t know what that tells you in the end.

Other than what we hear from people who’ve directly compared similarly priced D vs A or A/B amps, in the same system, it’s just conjecture.

(Is Class D actually “digital” as some have said? I don’t really understand that.)
 
Class D is not really ‘digital’.
Digital encoding involves two processes, sampling and quantization.
1. It is sampled and not continuous in time.
2. It quantized and not continuous in amplitude.

Class D amplifiers in their purest form don’t sample or quantize. They can, some do, but it is not a requirement or inherent in the design.
 
I think that the OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill! :sigh:
 
nicoff said:
I think that the OP is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill! :sigh:
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Ahh the joys of partaking on a forum being able to discuss all topics, large and small. I love it! What a wonderful world we live in to be able to do that.
 
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