Thread: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Network

Hi Everyone,

The other day I was reading here on AS a thread about somebody (Brad225?) having issues with re-connecting all their Ethernet connected gear (can't find that thread now) and getting it all to communicate properly once again after disassembly. It's been my experience that many folks have issues connecting and maintaining Ethernet connectivity within their audio systems due to the complexity/myriad of gear types often employed. To hopefully assist, here's a blog post that I wrote about a year and half ago based on simple linear troubleshooting that may be of help to those that struggle with Ethernet connectivity and keeping things on track:

How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Network

How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok.JPG

What percentage of network problems are caused by audiophiles complicating their networks with digital doo-dads?

Originally Posted by MikeCh

Hi Everyone,

The other day I was reading here on AS a thread about somebody (Brad225?) having issues with re-connecting all their Ethernet connected gear (can't find that thread now) and getting it all to communicate properly once again after disassembly. It's been my experience that many folks have issues connecting and maintaining Ethernet connectivity within their audio systems due to the complexity/myriad of gear types often employed. To hopefully assist, here's a blog post that I wrote about a year and half ago based on simple linear troubleshooting that may be of help to those that struggle with Ethernet connectivity and keeping things on track:

How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Network

How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok.JPG

Thanks for sharing Mike!

Well written and broken into logical steps and explanations. Thanks for posting it.

Originally Posted by mep

What percentage of network problems are caused by audiophiles complicating their networks with digital doo-dads?

A very large percentage in my experience.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Well written and broken into logical steps and explanations. Thanks for posting it.

Thank you Brian!

Originally Posted by mep

What percentage of network problems are caused by audiophiles complicating their networks with digital doo-dads?

When you read through the article you can see the answer is probably "quite a lot" although it is not quantified, and no actual evidence is presented although the logic is sound.

Originally Posted by MikeCh

A very large percentage in my experience.

That's what I figured. Somebody on this forum had made his digital system overly complex and had numerous reliability problems with it as a result. He ditched his digital doo-dads and upped his system reliability. Nows he's back to digital doo-dads.

Originally Posted by mep

That's what I figured. Somebody on this forum had made his digital system overly complex and had numerous reliability problems with it as a result. He ditched his digital doo-dads and upped his system reliability. Nows he's back to digital doo-dads.

Mark, it doesn't surprise me. The chase for cleaner/better music is too tempting to stay away from.

From another thread on, "Ethernet Switches" here on AS, I chimed in with the following (which gives a little more context and an additional linear troubleshooting method for Ethernet connectivity):


"Since there is no real "standard" that audio equipment manufacturers follow (unlike makers of Ethernet Network gear such as Cisco/Nexus, Juniper, et.al) rather they seem to choose their own Ethernet recipe for what is best for their design even down to how to decipher link-light-status at the RJ-45 or fiber ports. Not to mention, very little if any Audio gear to my knowledge allows a user to adjust duplex/speed settings or allow timing/clocking adjustments within a managed GUI. Just look at the various manufacturers of Ethernet connected "audio" gear or digital-doo-dads/filters/converters that have no standard on link-light-status colors for 10/100/1000 speeds or blink/no blink for "activity" or error rates.

One simple thing to do if you're having timing or physical errors in your audio network (or suspect such within your audio setup) is to simply unplug the END-MOST device (streamer, server, etc.) and plug your laptop computer into that cable. Go out and download something huge off the internet or start a stream of some sort and watch your Laptop NIC diags for any errors incurred. IF you see no errors counting up, then the issue is likely with communications at that Audiophile piece of kit/NIC. IF you see errors stacking up, then most certainly, look upstream one step at a time doing the same test in order to diagnose the problem and find the culprit. Linear troubleshooting in this manner can ferret out most issues."

My network is damn near flawless.

Originally Posted by mep

My network is damn near flawless.

Let me guess...zero doo-dads or dingleberries?

Originally Posted by MikeCh

Let me guess...zero doo-dads or dingleberries?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by mep

Exactly.

Same here.

Yes Mike, there is a good chance it was me. If I haven't listened to music for 10+ days often one piece of equipment is not found in the chain of equipment.

I don't know about dingleberries but, mine train in the room is from, coax - ethernet - switch - NAS - Streamer - Ethernet to USB conversion - reclock & convert to fiber - Dac.

Usually a reboot or having the system search for the UltraRendu cures the problem. It clearly was an issue more in the past fortunately.

Thanks for posting the article I will definitely read it.

A few days ago I broke my nuc network connection. Wanted to try roon arc and got it to work via a port forwarding rule in my router. It worked. Then i wanted to install it on a separate disc with a big SSD for my cd collection and listen to roon arc in my car and there it went wrong…

All nucs work, but this one fails after reinstalling linux twice on m2 and sata ssd roon rock crashes over and over no matter what I try, brought the bios to default settings, removed the port forwarding rule

Every other nuc works. Why??!!

Networks: I thought I did understand it. ☹️

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

A few days ago I broke my nuc network connection. Wanted to try roon arc and got it to work via a port forwarding rule in my router. It worked. Then i wanted to install it on a separate disc with a big SSD for my cd collection and listen to roon arc in my car and there it went wrong…

All nucs work, but this one fails after reinstalling linux twice on m2 and sata ssd roon rock crashes over and over no matter what I try, brought the bios to default settings, removed the port forwarding rule

Every other nuc works. Why??!!

Networks: I thought I did understand it. ☹️

Seems like a problem with the offending NUC and not your network. Simple way to determine the health of network connectivity to the offending NUC is to plug a laptop computer in place of the offending NUC (at the cable end that feeds the NUC) and see if you can get out to the internet to a page you'd normally not surf so that you're not relying on the PC's cache...for example, jeep.com or vw.com. If you can get to the internet, then the network is fine.

Can't help you with the NUC, sorry.

Originally Posted by brad225

Yes Mike, there is a good chance it was me. If I haven't listened to music for 10+ days often one piece of equipment is not found in the chain of equipment.

I don't know about dingleberries but, mine train in the room is from, coax - ethernet - switch - NAS - Streamer - Ethernet to USB conversion - reclock & convert to fiber - Dac.

Usually a reboot or having the system search for the UltraRendu cures the problem. It clearly was an issue more in the past fortunately.

Thanks for posting the article I will definitely read it.

What I highlighted is what I would eliminate. All of those conversions are weak links in the chain prone to breaking down and decreasing your network reliability.

For almost all DACs, the Ethernet to USB conversion is a necessary step; it usually occurs within the streamer/server but there is little reason to think that is more or less trouble free than the same conversion (usually using the same equipment) performed outside the server/streamer.

Originally Posted by rbbert

For almost all DACs, the Ethernet to USB conversion is a necessary step; it usually occurs within the streamer/server but there is little reason to think that is more or less trouble free than the same conversion (usually using the same equipment) performed outside the server/streamer.

Both my Roon Nucleus+ and my HiFi Rose 150B have ethernet connections. Both plug into my router and that is all the cables I use for my streaming aside from the ethernet connection from the wall that runs to the router.

Originally Posted by mep

What percentage of network problems are caused by audiophiles complicating their networks with digital doo-dads?

Almost 100% . That and so much misinformation saying that they need this doo dad or that one... they make SOOOOOOOOOOO much of a difference. Most are utter non-sense.

Originally Posted by mep

Both my Roon Nucleus+ and my HiFi Rose 150B have ethernet connections. Both plug into my router and that is all the cables I use for my streaming aside from the ethernet connection from the wall that runs to the router.

I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.

Originally Posted by rbbert

I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.

Of course my Roon Nucleus+ doesn't include a DAC. It is the Roon core and it connects to my HiFi Rose 150B over the network router which they are both plugged into. It's the same way my Roon Nucleus+ connected to my PS Audio DSJ.

IME the network router is a much more likely trouble spot than the Ethernet to USB conversion. YMMV.

Originally Posted by rbbert

I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.

His Rose includes a DAC ( ES9038PRO)

The way I look at this ( Ethernet ) is it all begins with your ISP, the quality of your installation of the internet service to your home and in your home, your cable modem and your router. If any of those sucks, your service regardless of dingleberry will not be up to par. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by CPP

...His Rose includes a DAC ( ES9038PRO)...

Yes, which is why I limited my comment to the Roon Nucleus+. Combined server/streamer/DACs avoid the necessity of USB conversion, but I think that most audiophiles are still using separate server/streamers connected by USB to DAC (with or without an additional conversion to fiber for DACs that accept that); AES/EBU and S/PDIF are also used. My point was that Ethernet to USB conversion is very unlikely to be a trouble spot, although the specific hardware used may well affect sound quality.

You can also take a look at some of the topics on connecting a Lumin to your network and Puma Cat's topic of different fiber cables; there are certainly potential problems there but nothing mysterious.

Originally Posted by rbbert

Yes, which is why I limited my comment to the Roon Nucleus+. Combined server/streamer/DACs avoid the necessity of USB conversion, but I think that most audiophiles are still using separate server/streamers connected by USB to DAC (with or without an additional conversion to fiber for DACs that accept that); AES/EBU and S/PDIF are also used. My point was that Ethernet to USB conversion is very unlikely to be a trouble spot, although the specific hardware used may well affect sound quality.

You can also take a look at some of the topics on connecting a Lumin to your network and Puma Cat's topic of different fiber cables; there are certainly potential problems there but nothing mysterious.

My Lumin's are directly connected to my router via cat 6a. No issues at all. I won't go fiber until our ISP buries it and offers it in our neighborhood, which might be in a few years.

I have 1GB fiber that feeds my house from my local utility company.

Originally Posted by mep

I have 1GB fiber that feeds my house from my local utility company.

'
Maybe one day at my new location. The old location, ATT just buried FTTH, but wasn't just yet ready for prime time.

Originally Posted by mep

I have 1GB fiber that feeds my house from my local utility company.

So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?

Originally Posted by rbbert

So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?

The fiber was installed by my utility company. Are you suggesting I'm supposed to doing something with it after they ran the cable conversion to the router they installed?

Originally Posted by MikeCh

Seems like a problem with the offending NUC and not your network. Simple way to determine the health of network connectivity to the offending NUC is to plug a laptop computer in place of the offending NUC (at the cable end that feeds the NUC) and see if you can get out to the internet to a page you'd normally not surf so that you're not relying on the PC's cache...for example, jeep.com or vw.com. If you can get to the internet, then the network is fine.

Can't help you with the NUC, sorry.

Finally I got it back to work. You where right, it was not my network. Today this nuc was tested on another network at another house. It failed there too, with a fresh installed Roon Rock.

Then I came across that inside Roon settings there is a button "clear cache". Pressing that button instantly was impossible, because the app crashes instantly. So I needed to connect to another roon server on another pc, then boot the nuc, logout from the temporaly roon server. Login to the nuc, and then I was able to press the clear cache button

This one took me 2 weeks to solve, so happy it is playing now

Originally Posted by nicoff

I think that he is suggesting that you install a "digital doo-dads". LOL

Yeah, not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Alkyogre

Finally I got it back to work. You where right, it was not my network. Today this nuc was tested on another network at another house. It failed there too, with a fresh installed Roon Rock.

Then I came across that inside Roon settings there is a button "clear cache". Pressing that button instantly was impossible, because the app crashes instantly. So I needed to connect to another roon server on another pc, then boot the nuc, logout from the temporaly roon server. Login to the nuc, and then I was able to press the clear cache button

This one took me 2 weeks to solve, so happy it is playing now

Glad you got things resolved!

Originally Posted by mep

The fiber was installed by my utility company. Are you suggesting I'm supposed to doing something with it after they ran the cable conversion to the router they installed?

I’m not suggesting that you do anything. My point is that fiber (or coax) to Ethernet to USB (or similar), in any order, occurs in almost every setup and is unlikely to be a source of network problems unless something is actually broken.

Originally Posted by rbbert

I’m not suggesting that you do anything. My point is that fiber (or coax) to Ethernet to USB (or similar), in any order, occurs in almost every setup and is unlikely to be a source of network problems unless something is actually broken.

My whole point is use the KISS principle. USB cables are not in my setup.

Originally Posted by mep

My whole point is use the KISS principle. USB cables are not in my setup.

I understand that; it does not invalidate my point. Everyone's setup tends to a little different from almost everyone else's in at least one small detail. Conversion to or from fiber/coax/Ethernet/USB/I2S/AES/SPDIF is unlikely to be the source of a network problem unless incompatible hardware or software is used (and this can be a problem anywhere in anyone's chain, not specific to any of these conversions), which is where we started.

To take this a little further, though, how do you know that the modem and router supplied by your ISP are really "doing their job"? For example, serious gamers usually replace both of those items because they don't perform up to the gamer's expectations. I'm not saying that the hardware your ISP provided isn't handling streaming audio optimally, but do either you or I know this? FWIW I replaced my ISP's router simply because its WiFi speeds were inconsistent, and a moderately priced aftermarket router solved this problem. That has nothing to do with audio, but if the ISP's hardware isn't up to a simple task used by everyone (including non-audiophiles ) how do you know it is really up to a more complex task (assuming that accurate transmission of all facets of a streaming audio signal is "complex")?

Originally Posted by rbbert

I understand that; it does not invalidate my point. Everyone's setup tends to a little different from almost everyone else's in at least one small detail. Conversion to or from fiber/coax/Ethernet/USB/I2S/AES/SPDIF is unlikely to be the source of a network problem unless incompatible hardware or software is used (and this can be a problem anywhere in anyone's chain, not specific to any of these), which is where we started.

Your original point was so simple it can't be invalidated and no one was trying to invalidate it. My comment to you was based on these comments from you:

"So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?" The company that installed my fiber network didn't give me an option to be responsible for converting the fiber over to ethernet. That's their job.

Originally Posted by mep

Your original point was so simple it can't be invalidated and no one was trying to invalidate it. My comment to you was based on these comments from you:

"So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?" The company that installed my fiber network didn't give me an option to be responsible for converting the fiber over to ethernet. That's their job.

Post #17 (by you) highlighted "switch" and "Ethernet to USB conversion" as likely trouble spots in a network; it is this to which I have been responding. Your router is a "switch", albeit a relatively simple one. You don't have "Ethernet to USB conversion", but you do have fiber to Ethernet conversion.

Obviously IT can be complex and problematic, it's why even small businesses have IT departments or a company under contract to perform that function. KISS limits the number of places to look for problems, but it isn't necessarily the path to optimal performance. I'm not saying that your system doesn't work optimally, but do you (or does anyone) actually know that? I certainly can't say that about my (also) pretty simple network path, it's just that at this time (and maybe forever) I'm not especially interested in looking at (for example) better power supplies for the cable modem and router, or a possibly better Ethernet cable (since for the little bit of streaming I do optimal sound quality is not a priority); I'm not going to criticize others (possibly or probably with more knowledge and experience addressing these issues) who do pursue those areas. OTOH, if one doesn't have the requisite knowledge and experience to do the troubleshooting one probably should not go further in those directions.

The KISS principle is always best to follow. I do not want my digital signal going through my network. Routers, switches, etc., etc. can damage the digital signal more than any particular output; ethernet, USB, optical, etc. I connect straight out of my server machine to my DAC using USB since this is the best way of getting DSD512 native to my DAC. It has always worked 100%. I do not recall ever having an issue getting my signal to my DAC and therefore to my pre-amp.

It amazes me how much effort people who love streaming networks put into their modems, routers, switches, ethernet cables, etc., when they have no control over the thousands of miles the signal travels through, hundreds of routers and switches, etc., that are far worse than anything in their home. How much of a difference could that last steps within their home actually affect their final signal?

Originally Posted by Randy Myers

The KISS principle is always best to follow. I do not want my digital signal going through my network. Routers, switches, etc., etc. can damage the digital signal more than any particular output; ethernet, USB, optical, etc. I connect straight out of my server machine to my DAC using USB since this is the best way of getting DSD512 native to my DAC. It has always worked 100%. I do not recall ever having an issue getting my signal to my DAC and therefore to my pre-amp.

It amazes me how much effort people who love streaming networks put into their modems, routers, switches, ethernet cables, etc., when they have no control over the thousands of miles the signal travels through, hundreds of routers and switches, etc., that are far worse than anything in their home. How much of a difference could that last steps within their home actually affect their final signal?

Some people still make the same argument for power cables.

Originally Posted by mep

Some people still make the same argument for power cables.

Ok, I can see that point. However, with power it is quite different. Your power grid is relatively local vs streaming servers located all over the world and many times the digital file may be traveling from a different continent even. Therefore, the digital hops and associated routers and switches are far more and far less controlled .

I put forth the proposition that your power is probably cleaner and/or has far less points of possible corruption so a power cable should influence the signal much more so than an Ethernet cable .

Originally Posted by mep

What I highlighted is what I would eliminate. All of those conversions are weak links in the chain prone to breaking down and decreasing your network reliability.

How do you use a system with storage and streaming and internet without a switch?

As for the ethernet to USB.

USB or Fiber to PlayBack Designs Stream-IF is the only option to deliver a signal that is 2 or 4 times DSD. It won't accept ethernet for that type of upsampling.

From the Stream IF to the PlayBack Designs MPS5 is Coax or fiber.

How many ethernet ports do you need Brad?

Well, based on my understanding from the manufacturers, the SonicTransporter, NAS and ethernet feed all connect to a switch.
So, 2 pieces connect to the the switch that provides the internet for streaming downloads and them to communicate.
Other equipment is with other forms of wire or glass.

Is that what you are asking?

Originally Posted by brad225

MEP, Randy
Any feedback on my situation?

It appears that you could get by with a 4 port router and not need a switch unless I'm missing something.