Do Ethernet cables Make a Difference
- Thread starter Mechnutt
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Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Funny you should describe the system the way you did - I am currently testing the GigaFOIL before the switch by my streamer and after the switch by my streamer to see which sound I prefer. Did you try the same? I notice yours is before your switch.
soundqcar
Member
I have indeed. I've actually tried it many different ways: A Gigafoil before the switch, two Gigafoils before the switch, one after the switch, one before AND after the switch and then into the X1 or the NUC. There was no doubt I noticed blacker backgrounds with one or two before the switch, and decided for complexity's sake - as I'm powering them with linear power supplies - that just a single one before the switch was good enough. I still have my extra Gigafoil, so I might try the second one again one of these days.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
That is awesome. I don't mean this to sound condescending, but how refreshing it is that someone actually experimented with their gear and using their own ears found a set up that works best for them.
I find the experimenting the most fun part of this hobby.
I can't tell you the number of ignoramuses I deal with on our videos who have never actually listened with their own ears, but will argue needlessly a point they theoretically think to be true as that's what they read somewhere.
Bravo for experimenting!
Puma Cat
Well-known member
What the Gigafoil is doing is removing high-source leakage impedance current, which causes threshold jitter. This is because the leakage current doesn't pass on an optical cable (photons don't carry current). What a run of optical will not do is reduce or remove phase noise. My experience is you want the switch with the best clock (e.g. a SOtM with the sCLK-EX clock board upgrade or the EtherREGEN with the Crystek CCHD-575 clock) closest to the "endpoint" (network bridge, streamer, or in this case, Bob's X1) so that it can reduce any phase noise induced by the "cheaper" clocks from the lower-spec switches upstream.
Also, Bob, as you have an X-1, you don't need a Gigafoil or a series of switches in between your server and the X1. You can simply use a run of LC/LC fiber from an OpticalModule Deluxe or a SOtM sNH-10 switch's optical transceiver SFP cage right into the back of your X1. I've personally found that less devices in the "path" sounds better, and is more reliable. Just some suggestions for your consideration. Cheers.
Also, Bob, as you have an X-1, you don't need a Gigafoil or a series of switches in between your server and the X1. You can simply use a run of LC/LC fiber from an OpticalModule Deluxe or a SOtM sNH-10 switch's optical transceiver SFP cage right into the back of your X1. I've personally found that less devices in the "path" sounds better, and is more reliable. Just some suggestions for your consideration. Cheers.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Don't get me started on those guys. A lot of them still think the "digital" signal is a set of 1s and 0s.
Agreed.
Me, I do DOEs whenever possible to establish direction, and so I can understand the relationship between the Control Factors and the Noise factors, and how they interact with respect to the transfer function. The key is to find where set the control factors so as to best minimize the impact of the noise factors (and there is always "noise" in a system; this is Physics, remember).
Love me a good transfer function.
And then...I sit down for a good listen.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Wikipedia article on Phase Noise:
Phase noise - Wikipedia
Here is a figure showing why fewer components is better with respect to creating less phase noise...
Less "components" in the path is...better.
It also gets us closer to Geinrich Altschuler's (inventor of TRIZ-Theory of Inventive Problem-Solving) Theory of Ideality....
From a white paper on Theory of Ideality...
Ideality "Transfer Function"
Another big proponent of "simple systems" or the "simplest circuit" (all consistent with the principles of Ideality) that will accomplish a transfer function is none other than Nelson Pass. Who knows a thing or two about all this, as well.
Phase noise - Wikipedia
Here is a figure showing why fewer components is better with respect to creating less phase noise...
Less "components" in the path is...better.
It also gets us closer to Geinrich Altschuler's (inventor of TRIZ-Theory of Inventive Problem-Solving) Theory of Ideality....
From a white paper on Theory of Ideality...
Ideality "Transfer Function"
Another big proponent of "simple systems" or the "simplest circuit" (all consistent with the principles of Ideality) that will accomplish a transfer function is none other than Nelson Pass. Who knows a thing or two about all this, as well.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Makes sense. My thinking was that I didn't like having a high end switch, then a "good" cable to the GigaFOIL with my "best" cable to the Rose. I *think* logically I'd want the best cable going from the switch to the streamer uninterrupted, meaning put the GF right before it.
I don't know - will be trying it out later today to see which I like better.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Yep, that sounds like it'd be the best path:
Upstream devices-Gigafoil->Better Ethernet cable (e.g your Soblon)->Best switch->Best Ethernet cable->Rose.
The reason the better switches matter is because they have better clocks in them and better isolation transformers in the RJ45 jacks. Good switches like the EtherREGEN's RJ45 use 12 isolation transformers per RJ45 jack and they are designed so there is no leakage current that can pass between each RJ45 port. The ER also used an "isolation moat" design to prevent leakage current from A side getting through to B side. And, they benefit from good power supplies.
Michael, you've read John's white paper. You know from reading that that John really knows WTF he's doing with respect to all this.
The other noise factor no one is discussing here is common-mode noise. Michael, you'll find out all about the impact this has when you compare the Sigma Ethernet cable I sent you with it's C-Mode filter compared to any other Ethernet cables.
Cheers, buddy.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
I was impressed not only with what he covered, but that he did it in a way that even a non-science guy like myself could easily understand. I'm glad you sent me that link to read.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Yeah, John's great. One of the hallmarks of true domain mastery is you can explain complex principles to "regular folks" with fewer words and in a simpler manner. He's incredibly knowledgeable, and a really nice guy, too. I've chatted with him on a Zoom call a while back. And, he's also a high-end audiophile and music lover.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
So I tried the GF before and after the PPA switch by the streamer.
It sounded better with the PPA, Supra cable to GF, Sablon cable to streamer.
I also tried switching out the Supra cable with the Blue Jeans cable and SOtM cables and the Supra worked best.
It sounded better with the PPA, Supra cable to GF, Sablon cable to streamer.
I also tried switching out the Supra cable with the Blue Jeans cable and SOtM cables and the Supra worked best.
ADCO
New member
I really like the Sigma cable but to be perfectly honest I think in my system it’s interchangeable between the Shunyata Sigma and my AQ Diamonds. I have two sigmas and all the rest are the AQ Diamonds.
I do think there are some very subtle differences that in my system I’m likely the only one that would pick up on them , both are truly excellent cables.
I think the Shunyata Omega might be the answer from where I am at but I just can’t reconcile the cost. It’s just one of those items I can’t seem to bring myself to purchase at the price.
The guys in this thread are talking about Fibre Media converters . I went that route with linear power supplies on both converters … all in. It was a dramatic improvement over the long run of standard cat 6 I had been using….
But
Subsequent to that I found Ediscreation . I purchased one of his switches and two of his Fibre Box II optical isolation devices
There is a lot going on in my listening space so I now run a long run of WireWorld starlight to the first Fibre Box then from there into the Ediscreation switch…. From the switch it goes to my Innuos server and from there through another fibre box II …. Then off to the Auralic Aries G2.1
Anyway, long story longer. If you want and excellent way to handle optical isolation I cannot recommend these Ediscreation Fibre Box II’s enough. A one box solution with fibre converters, high quality clock and an onboard linear power supply.
These have been crucial to the upgraded ethernet streaming in my house. More so than the bazillions spent on ethernet cables. It’s a high performance and super easy/elegant way to isolate components from upstream noise.
All, just my two cents
Puma Cat
Well-known member
I've got an Omega Ethernet cable I'm selling for 50% off retail; let me know if you're interested.
Fully agree on the improvements that fiber can provide. Cheers.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Woot ! Woot !
Just received some Shunyata power and ethernet cables to try from a friend!
Will report how they compare to the SOtM and Sablon Ethernet cables.
Just received some Shunyata power and ethernet cables to try from a friend!
Will report how they compare to the SOtM and Sablon Ethernet cables.
JCS123
Member
I know your advice is for Bob, but it applies to me as well. I'm reading about what works for you and others and I'm eagerly awaiting Michael's results. I find all of it very enlightening.
Beginning to think that instead of investing in switches, isolators, cables...I might be better served by saving my pennies for a LUMIN X1 or P1 so I can run fiber right into the back of the unit with fewer steps in the path - only one ethernet to optical conversion. Finally addressing my room would be a cost-effective way to improve the sound as I save up.
(Hmmm, how many pennies would it take to get to $$$$$$?)
JCS123
Member
Wow Michael, that PS-10 is on my short list for the office system!
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
PM me - I can recommend a really cheap switch front end that will greatly improve you system for cheap $$$ so you can save up for that X1 or P1. Just promise you won't share the final results with others as I'm going to be talking about it in my video coming out this week.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Yes, you would. This is exactly what I did, JCS, and I am VERY happy I did. I was able to remove, get this: 15 pieces of gear just from the main rack by getting the Lumin P1. Now, I just run ONE optical cable out from A-side of my EtherREGEN straight into the back of the P1. Job done!
And...it sounds FANTASTIC! SO GOOD! The P1 is the best streamer, one of the top 5 DACs AND preamps I have EVER heard, regardless of cost. It's as compelling as DACs from Esoteric, Playback Designs, EMM Labs, and LampiZator DACs I've heard, and the also the best preamps, and I say this as the owner of a a fully dual-mono First Sound Presence Deluxe 4.0-III-SI-x with Paramount SS upgrade preamp with ~300,000 uF of power supply capacitance.
Had an audio buddy over last week, and we were using the P1 "just as a preamp" while spinning...LPs. My buddy Gregory said, "Man! The P1 is REALLY good as a preamp. I'm hearing things in recordings I know REALLY well that I've literally never heard before."
"Yeah, baby, yeah!"-Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery.
Lumin P1: "One and done!"
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Yeah, you should. I have a PS10 that I use for HT and another one in the remote server room for the music server, Router, AfterDark clock, ER and the AfterDark power supply. It is very impressive. When I added it into my remote server room over my older Hydra 4, it brought a considerable improvement in audio quality, even just powering the components in the server room. Turns out these devices are very prone to noise components.