Borresen Acoustics Loudspeakers
- Thread starter kiwi_1282001
- Start date
kzhtoo
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2014
- Messages
- 1,619
That’s kiddish. [emoji849]
octadyndude
New member
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Including you.
the professor
Active member
First - I should have said here in the United States. I have NO experience of sales outside of here.
I have not looked for any Borresen used for sale. But here in the USA, typically a current product that is in great condition will sell for approximately what a dealer can buy it for new . +- a little. That applies to stereo equipment, watches, etc etc. Not a knock on the product what so ever. Just how things typically work. With Raidho it's been that way for years. I've been told that Borresen has the same pricing structure. No reason to believe it will be any different.
And yes - I was offered a pair of 01s at 40% of retail price. (yes that's 60% off). I almost bought a pair. And might still do so once I sell my D5s.
I have not looked for any Borresen used for sale. But here in the USA, typically a current product that is in great condition will sell for approximately what a dealer can buy it for new . +- a little. That applies to stereo equipment, watches, etc etc. Not a knock on the product what so ever. Just how things typically work. With Raidho it's been that way for years. I've been told that Borresen has the same pricing structure. No reason to believe it will be any different.
And yes - I was offered a pair of 01s at 40% of retail price. (yes that's 60% off). I almost bought a pair. And might still do so once I sell my D5s.
kiwi_1282001
Active member
- Thread Author
- #45
Dear all,
As I made clear in an earlier and since deleted thread I am not a hired “brand ambassador” for Borresen Acoustics or affiliated brands. No material connection exists between me and the brand except for the fact I consider myself a friend of one of the company owners. I’ve not received payment, free or discounted product in return for promotional services as some seem to assume. I actually find the idea of being labelled a brand ambassador quite endearing though somewhat comical. I mean, have you read about the BMW luxury group brand ambassador driving around in a mini?
My passion for the Borresen brand is well known by frequent readers of the forum. In order not to mislead any visitors to Audioshark a personal relationship disclosure was made. The forum owner is satisfied with the disclosure – so let’s please move on.
As I made clear in an earlier and since deleted thread I am not a hired “brand ambassador” for Borresen Acoustics or affiliated brands. No material connection exists between me and the brand except for the fact I consider myself a friend of one of the company owners. I’ve not received payment, free or discounted product in return for promotional services as some seem to assume. I actually find the idea of being labelled a brand ambassador quite endearing though somewhat comical. I mean, have you read about the BMW luxury group brand ambassador driving around in a mini?
My passion for the Borresen brand is well known by frequent readers of the forum. In order not to mislead any visitors to Audioshark a personal relationship disclosure was made. The forum owner is satisfied with the disclosure – so let’s please move on.
octadyndude
New member
My local Borresen dealer claims he has never had the good fortune to meet you, talk to you or quote you. Nor is he in a position to offer a discount on Borresen speakers without a trade-in credit.
still-one
Active member
It has been my understanding that it is not considered appropriate to discuss discounts or margins on this or just about any of the sites I peruse or participate.
the professor
Active member
Hi Jock,
No apology is necessary as far as I’m concerned. As always, I appreciate your candor.
Best,
Ken
kiwi_1282001
Active member
- Thread Author
- #50
Jim, you raise a good point. I was not aware of any Audioshark site specific policies around this and perhaps Mike could comment?
I absolutely agree that raising public discussion on topics like discounts, product & channel margins and pricing policy should not be encouraged, though I’ve seen it in a number of Audioshark threads, most recently PS Audio – so perhaps its considered ok here?
Speaking generally, I don’t imagine dealers would be happy to have discounts which they have offered in private made public. Equally, if principals or distributors learn through public forums that dealers are acting outside of agreed policy – that can have significant consequences for all concerned parties.
kiwi_1282001
Active member
- Thread Author
- #51
Sixmoon’s visit to Børresen Acoustics
Srajan Ebaen of Sixmoons.com has just published a very interesting article on his recent visit to Borresen Acoustics and the innovative new technologies used in Borresen loudspeakers. This is excellent reading for current Borresen speaker owners.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/borresen/
Borresen is one of the few loudspeaker manufacturers to design and build drivers in house. I was not previously aware of the use of perforated HDF discs which are claimed to create a pressure environment bigger than the cabinet and also mean [for the Borresen 02 and upward] that drivers sharing the same port don’t see each other.
Source acknowledgement: Srajan Ebaen, Sixmoons, Review Borresen 02, accessed online 27 August 2019, see above link. Photo of Borresen designed woofers together with a perforated HDF disc which sits behind the woofer.
And then there’s the esoteric stuff – dither tech which designer Michael Borresen is said to have based on an approach borrowed from marine sonar. The injection of Schuman resonance and harmonics to combat a widely known problem of cabling acting as antennas. All cables can act like antennas, both to transmit and receive and this problem has gotten significantly worse in recent times with popularity of WiFi for streaming, not to mention the proliferation of cellular and other wireless technologies used in the modern home. Accordingly, dither tech is also incorporated as filtering in some products of the Ansuz Acoustics product range.
Source acknowledgement: Srajan Ebaen, Sixmoons, Review Borresen 02, accessed online 27 August 2019, see above link. Render of Borresen 02 loudspeaker showing cabinet internals including the drivers, driver internal chambers and HDF discs. At higher SPL the behavior of the ported alignment is said to shift to more of a sealed box to improve control and power handling.
Srajan Ebaen of Sixmoons.com has just published a very interesting article on his recent visit to Borresen Acoustics and the innovative new technologies used in Borresen loudspeakers. This is excellent reading for current Borresen speaker owners.
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/borresen/
Borresen is one of the few loudspeaker manufacturers to design and build drivers in house. I was not previously aware of the use of perforated HDF discs which are claimed to create a pressure environment bigger than the cabinet and also mean [for the Borresen 02 and upward] that drivers sharing the same port don’t see each other.
Source acknowledgement: Srajan Ebaen, Sixmoons, Review Borresen 02, accessed online 27 August 2019, see above link. Photo of Borresen designed woofers together with a perforated HDF disc which sits behind the woofer.
And then there’s the esoteric stuff – dither tech which designer Michael Borresen is said to have based on an approach borrowed from marine sonar. The injection of Schuman resonance and harmonics to combat a widely known problem of cabling acting as antennas. All cables can act like antennas, both to transmit and receive and this problem has gotten significantly worse in recent times with popularity of WiFi for streaming, not to mention the proliferation of cellular and other wireless technologies used in the modern home. Accordingly, dither tech is also incorporated as filtering in some products of the Ansuz Acoustics product range.
Source acknowledgement: Srajan Ebaen, Sixmoons, Review Borresen 02, accessed online 27 August 2019, see above link. Render of Borresen 02 loudspeaker showing cabinet internals including the drivers, driver internal chambers and HDF discs. At higher SPL the behavior of the ported alignment is said to shift to more of a sealed box to improve control and power handling.
Kuoppis
New member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2015
- Messages
- 5,213
I don’t think there are such policies on the Sharks forum, but Mike could just block your account because you are a ____ (everyone to fill in what they think applies). Maybe “Friend of one of the Borresen owners”, as it says in your signature?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Nikhil
Member
Ralf,
Since you and Lars asked what was the problem that we have with your posts, I'd like to point one example here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussi...eakers-have-you-heard-them-what-did-you-think
You are clearly a Raidho/Borresen Acoustics fan and actively shill/promote their products. In the thread I have referenced above you are clearly misrepresenting yourself as an audio enthusiast looking to find information on Borresen Acoustics. The Audiogon thread is there for everyone to see your disingenuous ways.
Lars,
Since you asked why some Sharks had a problem with your products ...
I was in the audience when you and Michael demonstrated your Raidho products at Munich 2017. You guys actively sold Raidho at Munich and shortly thereafter sold the brand leaving current owners in the lurch. We have several owners on here who were left with Raidho speakers that were reduced worth in the thousands of dollars. Jock has a D5 currently on sale at $38.5K (list price $220K plus). We all know this is a world where business is business but, to me, you guys cashed out at the expense of Raidho customers.
So please don't come on here and act incredulous about why we have a problem with your products and surrogate marketing tactics. We have to look out for each other and Borresen Acoustics has to earn our trust after what you have done at Raidho.
Regards.
.
Since you and Lars asked what was the problem that we have with your posts, I'd like to point one example here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussi...eakers-have-you-heard-them-what-did-you-think
You are clearly a Raidho/Borresen Acoustics fan and actively shill/promote their products. In the thread I have referenced above you are clearly misrepresenting yourself as an audio enthusiast looking to find information on Borresen Acoustics. The Audiogon thread is there for everyone to see your disingenuous ways.
Lars,
Since you asked why some Sharks had a problem with your products ...
I was in the audience when you and Michael demonstrated your Raidho products at Munich 2017. You guys actively sold Raidho at Munich and shortly thereafter sold the brand leaving current owners in the lurch. We have several owners on here who were left with Raidho speakers that were reduced worth in the thousands of dollars. Jock has a D5 currently on sale at $38.5K (list price $220K plus). We all know this is a world where business is business but, to me, you guys cashed out at the expense of Raidho customers.
So please don't come on here and act incredulous about why we have a problem with your products and surrogate marketing tactics. We have to look out for each other and Borresen Acoustics has to earn our trust after what you have done at Raidho.
Regards.
.
kiwi_1282001
Active member
- Thread Author
- #54
Nikhil said:
Hello Nikhil,
Thanks for the post. Yes, I am a fan of Borresen Acoustics products and yes, I make a large voluntary effort to share my enthusiasm, product experience and news related to the company.
Was the Audiogon thread an act of deception? You can read it however you wish. I’d simply point out I used the same handle (kiwi_1282001) as I use on Audioshark – which wouldn’t be terribly clever if this was an orchestrated act of subterfuge. Second, the post which asked for peoples impressions on the speakers was set up before I physically received my pair of speakers. Who isn’t curious about other people’s opinions before receiving product of your own? Finally, there’s been no further AG posts since early this year since I don’t need other people’s opinions now on how they sound – because they are now sitting in my audio room and they sound bloody brilliant.
Just one other point in closing Nikhil. Lars did not sell his company after the Munich 2017 show. Dantax A/S acquired the Raidho project way back in 2009. From 2009 onwards Lars was a representative of the company. Your comment therefore that “you guys cashed out at the expense of loyal Raidho customers” is materially wrong. It is wrong not only because Lar’s wasn’t running or owning the company/brand but because today a growing percentage of former Raidho customers are now very satisfied Borresen customers.
I believe that you're mistaken. Lars and Michael didn't sell the brand. It was already owned by Dantax has been like that for over a decade. Lars and Michael left Raidho and Dantax since they didn't like where thing where going in terms of many things. It is not like they've sold their soul to the devil or anything. If you are to accuse anyone please have your facts straight.
Since disclaiming is the new black - I work for Ansuz, Aavik and Børresen.
Nikhil
Member
Thanks for the clarification and the disclosure.
Happy to be informed of the scenario behind the whole thing.
I don't know if it makes any Raidho owners feel any better though.
.
Nikhil
Member
Ralf,
Thanks for the facts on this. It does change my perception of events.
Perhaps I should change my original post to say "exited" instead of "cashed out" ...
I'm not quite ready to let you off the hook on the other point.
I'll leave it to others to read the Agon thread and make their own conclusions.
Regards
.
Some background:
Raidho was hit unusually hard by the financial problems of 2008 and was taken into bankruptcy in 2009, and had been dissolved by 2010. A saviour came from an unlikely source in the form of Danish budget audio and CE company Dantax that bought the Raidho company lock stock and barrel in 2009, unusually enough, but usually in these bankruptcy cases the potential suitors only purchase selected assets, Dantax however hired all the original staff of the company and simply moved the factory to its headquarters in Pandrup and continued operations as if nothing had happened.
Source: http://audiotools.com/dead_r.html
Thanks to Mike for the insider Raidho backstory.
Raidho has had a pretty successful run since Dantax purchased the company in 2009. I don't know if Michael Borresen was with the company prior to the Dantax purchase, but if he was the original Raidho designer and Lars Kristiansen was the sales rep, Dantax did well to retain them.
I'm sure there is no perfect speaker. But for me the Raidho's have imaging and resolution strengths I've not heard from many other speakers at manufacturers, dealers, or RMAF. I've read Borresen has a degree in physics and a different approach to audio design. I've owned used Raidho speakers since 2009 and really enjoyed them musically. I now own some Ansuz products that have elevated my musical enjoyment further by adding more dynamics and resolution. I definitely want to one day audition the Borresen speakers.
IMO the biggest mistake I've made for years was trying to find an all encompassing speaker that would produce visceral bass within my budget. Even after I built a music purposed acoustically designed dedicated room, I didn't experience emotional bass. I finally concluded a really great, well integrated subwoofer and active crossover coupled with a speaker that excels at frequencies >80 Hz. is the most cost effective approach for all but those with unlimited resources.
Lastly, I have to say I've been put off by some of the contentious posts in this thread - it occurs far too often in many forums. More facts, less hearsay and rumor spreading, especially those used for a destructive purpose, would be most welcome.
Raidho has had a pretty successful run since Dantax purchased the company in 2009. I don't know if Michael Borresen was with the company prior to the Dantax purchase, but if he was the original Raidho designer and Lars Kristiansen was the sales rep, Dantax did well to retain them.
I'm sure there is no perfect speaker. But for me the Raidho's have imaging and resolution strengths I've not heard from many other speakers at manufacturers, dealers, or RMAF. I've read Borresen has a degree in physics and a different approach to audio design. I've owned used Raidho speakers since 2009 and really enjoyed them musically. I now own some Ansuz products that have elevated my musical enjoyment further by adding more dynamics and resolution. I definitely want to one day audition the Borresen speakers.
IMO the biggest mistake I've made for years was trying to find an all encompassing speaker that would produce visceral bass within my budget. Even after I built a music purposed acoustically designed dedicated room, I didn't experience emotional bass. I finally concluded a really great, well integrated subwoofer and active crossover coupled with a speaker that excels at frequencies >80 Hz. is the most cost effective approach for all but those with unlimited resources.
Lastly, I have to say I've been put off by some of the contentious posts in this thread - it occurs far too often in many forums. More facts, less hearsay and rumor spreading, especially those used for a destructive purpose, would be most welcome.
VT Skier
New member
As an ex-Raidho owner, I have some insight into, and experience with, much of the controversy surrounding Raidho, including, among other things, engineered bass emphasis, pricing, and sales tactics. Some of this controversy has also (logically) affected Borresen Acoustics.
I stand with Jock in noting that extreme discounting was common in the U.S. for Raidho products when Lars K and Michael B worked there, and when they claimed to be among the principals of the company. It would not surprise me to learn that a similar pricing model is being used with Borresen Acoustics products. In fact, I would be more surprised if they weren't relying on very heavy discounting here given the paucity of U.S. dealers (one? two?) and general lack of a U.S. presence.
Further, Lars K told me personally, in front of a witness in 2013, that he and Michael B "owned" Raidho, along with a passive investor (John Peter Jensen). Again, I would not be surprised if this claim was made to others, or if that was the general impression among the industry or public.
Also, for those who deny any mid bass emphasis, engineered or otherwise, I was told by Lars K (again, in front of a witness) that Michael B intentionally emphasized the bass in Raidho speakers because they were designed for low level listening in fairly close quarters. I know of at least one acknowledged audio expert who confirmed this emphasis with in-room measurements. Whether that's acceptable, or desirable, is a topic that seems to have been covered ad nauseam, and ultimately depends on one's personal, and subjective, preference.
While I understand Borresen Acoustics is a different brand with new products, many of their employees, including both principals, are ex-Raidho. So while I am sure they have learned from past mistakes, it seems fair to question how different the new brand and products really are.
I was a happy Raidho owner, and I am a happy ex-Raidho owner. And I hope that Borresen Acoustics finds all the success that its products, business acumen, and integrity deserve.