a.wayne
Active member
Imagine the discourse when You actually get your hands on hi rez top Tier Digital playback 
Why no turntable?
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
Kingrex
Active member
AJ, have you captured a Youtube of your ADA test yet. I gather you never got Al to your place. The other thread just ends.
I wasn't trying to dredge up another digital vs analog spout. Whoops. Maybe my point should have been more along the line that when you get to higher levels of vinyl equipment, the level of playback quality really goes up. Enough so in my case it moved beyond my digital. Maybe I could play some leap frog. My DAC is now the entry level unit with Mojo Audio. The new Evo DAC by Mojo is suppose to be quite a bit better, but its now getting into the $9k to $11k range depending on options. But then I could get a new TT cartridge. But then a new dgital cable, but then a new tone arm, but then a new etc etc etc.
I guess its wrong to say one betters the other because something can be changed to alter the outcome. In my case, moving from a modded Rega RP6 to the STST Motus II was a large uptick in performance. The expressive nature of music was improved by a large degree making existing media I have a much closer to your there level of playback.
Maybe what I have found, in my sytem is that in the sub $6k range digital does everything vinyl does and many times better. As I got over $11k, the vinyl started taking the show. If I upgraded my DAC, I would be in the $15k digital realm and who knows the outcome then.
I wasn't trying to dredge up another digital vs analog spout. Whoops. Maybe my point should have been more along the line that when you get to higher levels of vinyl equipment, the level of playback quality really goes up. Enough so in my case it moved beyond my digital. Maybe I could play some leap frog. My DAC is now the entry level unit with Mojo Audio. The new Evo DAC by Mojo is suppose to be quite a bit better, but its now getting into the $9k to $11k range depending on options. But then I could get a new TT cartridge. But then a new dgital cable, but then a new tone arm, but then a new etc etc etc.
I guess its wrong to say one betters the other because something can be changed to alter the outcome. In my case, moving from a modded Rega RP6 to the STST Motus II was a large uptick in performance. The expressive nature of music was improved by a large degree making existing media I have a much closer to your there level of playback.
Maybe what I have found, in my sytem is that in the sub $6k range digital does everything vinyl does and many times better. As I got over $11k, the vinyl started taking the show. If I upgraded my DAC, I would be in the $15k digital realm and who knows the outcome then.
a.wayne
Active member
The compare has been done at all levels Rex and even diehard digi freaks give in when exposed .. Analog is a PITA , thats it , beats digital hands down all day everyday for preferred sound , of course this is system dependent , small scale underpowered systems will always favor digital , this has been my experience over the decades ....
large scale systems with appropriate power excels on analog in no uncertain way, its not that the best digital is bad its just never ever sounds as natural always electronic, there are a few exceptions and degrees of this of course .. ..
YMMV etc , etc ..!
large scale systems with appropriate power excels on analog in no uncertain way, its not that the best digital is bad its just never ever sounds as natural always electronic, there are a few exceptions and degrees of this of course .. ..
YMMV etc , etc ..!
Dre_J
Member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2014
- Messages
- 190
I think you have added more information for those reading. There are issues with the line of thinking you communicated above that are best left for your discovery over time and experience: much like how you came to where you are now.
However, it still appears you have added support to my comment you replied to:
On a final note: If you want to know my general thoughts on the original question posed by Mike, you can see it earlier in the thread here: https://www.audioshark.org/showthread.php?t=16741&p=276766&viewfull=1#post276766
- Thread Author
- #505
The event that AJ referenced above was on May 22, 2016. I found my notes from the event! The owner of Pure Vinyl did a presentation to the audiophile groups in Tampa and Sarasota at Bart’s house. At the time, Bart had JAMO speakers and Pass electronics, combined with EMM DAC. The Pure Vinyl guy brought a modest Rega turntable. My notes indicates a KORG A2D was used.
Using Bart’s large screen and projector, he was able to project the results from his laptop onto the screen for everyone to see and obviously, hear in real time as the record was playing and the analog was being captured and converted to digital and then played back and compared and contrasted at the same time to the record being played.
A first Japanese Pressing of Pink Floyd’s DSOTM was used as the source. An all analog recording and pressing at the time.
What the test showed, was that even at the highest sample rate (24/192 in this case), there was still quite a bit of information on the record that was not being converted to digital. It was being truncated. Moreover, it was clear to me and everyone there (AJ may disagree, but at the time, pictures of his face show otherwise!) that the vinyl was clearly superior sonically and the data didn’t lie. There was information on the record that could not be captured by the Pure Vinyl. At the time, 24/192 was the highest level we could imagine. Would that change with a much higher bit/sample rate? I don’t know.
Prior to the experiment, the digital only guys argued that we couldn’t hear above 16/44, but what the test showed and my notes clearly indicate was that there were indeed sonic cues, air, ambience and more that was being truncated by the digital file even at it’s highest sampling rate.
I think it could be argued that in 2016, software, ADC’s and the like might not have been at the level they are today and the results today might be different, especially with higher sample rates.
But in the end, this very old technology of a needle in a groove still produces fabulous sound and fun for millions of people around the world.
Using Bart’s large screen and projector, he was able to project the results from his laptop onto the screen for everyone to see and obviously, hear in real time as the record was playing and the analog was being captured and converted to digital and then played back and compared and contrasted at the same time to the record being played.
A first Japanese Pressing of Pink Floyd’s DSOTM was used as the source. An all analog recording and pressing at the time.
What the test showed, was that even at the highest sample rate (24/192 in this case), there was still quite a bit of information on the record that was not being converted to digital. It was being truncated. Moreover, it was clear to me and everyone there (AJ may disagree, but at the time, pictures of his face show otherwise!) that the vinyl was clearly superior sonically and the data didn’t lie. There was information on the record that could not be captured by the Pure Vinyl. At the time, 24/192 was the highest level we could imagine. Would that change with a much higher bit/sample rate? I don’t know.
Prior to the experiment, the digital only guys argued that we couldn’t hear above 16/44, but what the test showed and my notes clearly indicate was that there were indeed sonic cues, air, ambience and more that was being truncated by the digital file even at it’s highest sampling rate.
I think it could be argued that in 2016, software, ADC’s and the like might not have been at the level they are today and the results today might be different, especially with higher sample rates.
But in the end, this very old technology of a needle in a groove still produces fabulous sound and fun for millions of people around the world.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
Of course not. Who wants to be exposed and look silly for the entire world to see? It will never happen for that reason. Most audiophiles have just enough sense/cognizance to evade these type things.
Btw, Al was never coming to my place, that I'm aware of.
No, you're not wrong to say that within the limits of your stereo, you prefer X vs Y. That is not contentious whatsoever, nor anything to discuss further. Preference is absolute.
Problems only arise when audiophiles project beyond their own realities into physical reality.
As I've linked numerous times, the one or two who have been exposed to reality outside the echo-chamber bubble, wouldn't be arguing for 19th century stereo tech being the ultimate reproduction in the 21st century. At least not among rational folks.
What they prefer is another matter.
cheers,
AJ
a.wayne
Active member
AJ , inventor of slick 50 replies ....
Randy Myers
Active member
I would love to see this re-done and recorded in DSD, preferably DSD256 or above. I bet the results would be much closer. I have had some great and very informative conversations with David Elias. A wonderful artist but also into tech. He previous worked for tech companies.
He was a very early adopter of digital, especially DSD. He believes in no uncertain terms that DSD is much more analog sounding. He also now understands why DSD256 and DSD512 sound even better. He is also a huge advocate of MQA for streaming and portable use, but he believes DSD sounds better. He came to these beliefs being one of the first artist to release his albums recorded in DSD. He was also one of the very first to release his catalog in MQA.
I am glad you think that's the case.
Undoubtedly that plays a role, yes.
Thank you for the link.
AJ Soundfield
Active member
No Mike, the real time ADA level matched switching was maybe 2 years back, held at a Hillsborough County library. I do recall that event at Barts, that was vinyl ripping. That Channel D (?) is pretty neat software.
My event, there is no recording, its all live LP playback, straight vs a ADA looped version
- Thread Author
- #511
The results were clear. Way more info on the record we could measure and hear. He played the record Vs the digital rip. Yes, Channel D makes the Pure Vinyl software.
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- Thread Author
- #512
We should get back on topic rather than another analog Vs digital.
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One topic is logically linked to the other, Mike. That became even more clear to me as I just re-read your OP.
The answer to your question "Why no turntable" is intrinsically linked to if you find it sonically necessary or not.
I very much enjoy vinyl in my friends' systems, and often really love the experience. But I don't find it necessary for myself. Even though there are some occasions where the same recording really sounds better on vinyl than on digital.
- Thread Author
- #514
You need a turntable in YOUR system to really experience it. Otherwise, it’s a mute point. Listening at friends homes just isn’t the same. Not even close.
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Sorry, I don't follow the logic.
And you say I need to spend all the money on an outcome I already know from elsewhere, instead of spending it on optimizing the one source that I chose to be important for me? If I had done that, my CD replay would be much poorer (it, or its file equivalent, would also be much poorer if I had invested in computer audio to be able to play hi-res, taking money away from optimizing my system elsewhere). I don't have unlimited amounts of money lying around.
And by the way, while I can listen through the clicks and pops in my friends' systems (to the point where I don't even seriously notice them even when my friends themselves complain about some of them!) I could never do that in my own system. I know because I have been through this in my youth. Never again. In that sense, CD was a godsend, liberating me from LP cleaning OCD.
Kingrex
Active member
I agree, no one NEEDS more than one source. Its suppose to be about enjoying music. Not analyzing your system. It's just a choose to have a second source. Or third. I made the mistake of buying a third source. Huge waste if money and a letdown for me. No desire to dump gobbs of money to try and make it better. The only good a 3rd source did for me was show me the cost of media for the first two is very affordable. Especially the streaming. As far as vinyl, digital and vinyl are close enough sonically it appears a waste of money, to me, to but high end records. The beauty in vinyl for me is finding an old Ray Charles or Art Pepper for $6 and its a smoking good recording. Spending $50 to get a remake that takes a concerted A/B to discern the differences between vinyl and digital is not a good use of money. For me.
Edit to add, When I say vinyl is better than digital, the old Ray Charles, Art Pepper, Duke Ellington, Ella etc are the amazing finds on vinyl that digital reissues miss the magic. I have some $6 to $19 old records that are just amazing. The remakes of these album are not like the old vinyl. There is tonal purity in those grooves. And they are affordable.
Edit to add, When I say vinyl is better than digital, the old Ray Charles, Art Pepper, Duke Ellington, Ella etc are the amazing finds on vinyl that digital reissues miss the magic. I have some $6 to $19 old records that are just amazing. The remakes of these album are not like the old vinyl. There is tonal purity in those grooves. And they are affordable.
CPP
Active member
Sure you don't need BUT ONE source, one only needs one car, one bike, one of anything. But it can be about enjoying the music with more than on source. I happen to enjoy listening to an LP and holding the LP jacket, maybe its my age but its what I LIKE TO DO. I've got hundreds of LP's, hundreds of CD's some downloads but i stream as well. Big deal. its the music. I like a lot of others like the older pressings, whoopie freaking do.... This type of thread regardless on which forum its under always goes down the same street of nonsense. Digital vs LP vs tape vs CD vs download vs streaming. Just one sided jibber jabber that never stops. Well back to watching reruns of golf tournaments.
CPP
Active member
Sure you don't need BUT ONE source, one only needs one car, one bike, one of anything. But it can be about enjoying the music with more than on source. I happen to enjoy listening to an LP and holding the LP jacket, maybe its my age but its what I LIKE TO DO. I've got hundreds of LP's, hundreds of CD's some downloads but i stream as well. Big deal. its the music. I like a lot of others like the older pressings, whoopie freaking do.... This type of thread regardless on which forum its under always goes down the same street of nonsense. Digital vs LP vs tape vs CD vs download vs streaming. Just one sided jibber jabber that never stops. Well back to watching reruns of golf tournaments.
Kingrex
Active member
Why watch golf. Buy a Golden Tee golf machine.
CPP
Active member
Ah Why ? LOL