How thrifty is thrifty?

Not sure it can be quantified since it will vary from person to person. But if I was to take a stab at it, I would say a total system, $5000 or less. Maggie MMG's, Cambridge Integrated, Schiit DAC, Blue Jean or Straight Wire cables....or something to that affect.

But one persons $5000 is another persons $10,000 or $20,000.

Got to agree with Mike. Since I retired my budget for anything audio goes to the back burner and other activities like fishing, golf, photography, kayaking, travel and health move to the front. ( all are outdoors) . My audio budget is based on the item itself and the benefit I think I should get from that investment. Right now I'm looking for bookshelf's under the $2500 range for my small office Vapor, Fritz, Ryan, Nola Boxer and LSA1's as an example. Acoustic panels if they ever get here under $1000

The old saying thrifty is as thrifty does applies. You have to stay within your personal budget.

I agree that a budget system should be a max of $5,000.

TONEGUY said:

When you guys say "audio on a budget" or "on a low budget" what exactly are you talking about?

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College student <$100 "low budget/thrifty", Dayton B652-Air and DTA-1.

TONEGUY said:

Because of my job, my priorities are a little warped.

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Well, perhaps mine are too, but I figure if you want to appeal to said future audiophiles, gotta start low. Otherwise audio shows with $20k cable lifters in every room, will continue to look like trips to Century Village.

cheers,

AJ

I also agree with Mike's view. I would go for something like a 2nd hand Classe Ca-2200, refurbed Audio Research SP-11Mk2, Sony SCD-1 & well cared for pair of 2nd hand Infinity RS-2B's. Throw in some Kimber 12tc & you've got yourself a great bang for the buck system on a 'relative' budget of about $10k. I tried!! :roflmao:

Yes, Mike puts it well. "Thrifty", "affordable", "reasonable", "inexpensive",call it what you like, just don't call it cheap. Affordable means something different to each person. The most important thing is for each individual to stay within their budget and do the best they can.
One can allot a budget to an entire system or as Chris stated, to individual pieces.
Chris, I like your thinking as well because it takes into account diminishing returns which have a huge effect. I personally believe that both budget and diminishing returns should be taken into account as priority. Like I said, the whole idea is to do the best one can within one's means.

Talking what is considered high end or fine audio is almost uncharted waters for most folks and that definitely includes me. Up until a couple of months ago, I was of the belief that there was precious little out there in I guess what could be called affordable high end (also forgetting that I have a couple of pieces myself). It wasn't easy for me getting them, but I did it.
I now believe that one can obtain fine audio gear without sacrificing a mortgage, hawking everything one owns, going into BK and all the financial and life tragedies visited upon a fool and their money. I feel that the fine audio makers should offer at least just one item considered reasonable and affordable as it would do nothing but good. One doesn't have to be an economist to see the good in that for all involved.
Well, I only very recently found that a number of them are doing just that, all ready do that and it looks like more are coming, even if it's a trickle rate out of the faucet, it's a very good thing!
If one looks one will find that there is a lot more fine audio gear out there than immediately meets the eye. One has to look for it, but it's there and it only takes a look. I'm talking about big touted brands like (and these were surprises to me), Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Focal, Pathos, Peachtree, just to name a few.
Also good dealers like Mike will know what is what as well.

A bit early for this, but I have a wish, a dream, a hope, whatever you call it, it's not only about myself. I want to introduce good sound quality to folks who don’t know they can have it, folks who think they can’t have it and/or think that possible affordable “high-end” gear doesn't even exist, like I thought. I want to show that high end pieces don't have to cost $9k, $10k, $20k or $30k etc. each or something. I want to show them that they don't have to live with cheap Chinese produced gear off the Walmart and Best Buy shelves or what have you that may not last the trip home and definitely won't have the staying power or deliver better SQ. I want to show non-audiophile folks like myself that there is more affordable high end gear out there than meets the eye with realistic numbers that can be had in relatively short order or of realistic goal to save up for, even if it takes a year or two or what have you depending on ones means.

Ok, I have a fear of heights and close places so I'm jumping off this soapbox now. I tend to get a bit passionate about certain things.
Anyway, just my opinion, that's all.

~Eric

Jeff.......Something else to consider that always helps keep the cost under control is shopping pre-owned gear. Generally speaking a person can assemble a $10K system for nearly half that price with diligent shopping for clean pre-owned equipment. There are many folks wanting to move up the audiophile chain and will liquidate existing gear at reasonable prices to help finance their move. At 50% to 60% of original prices, buying pre-owned gear can deliver a sound system that exceeds the original goal without having to stretch the budget. Another thing to consider is flexibility in your budget. Speaking from personal experience I have rarely ever held tightly to my original spending limit. Set a target budget and also a number that you will absolutely not exceed. Make every effort to stay within the target budget but put the brakes on quick when you find audio lust pushing you well past your maximum spending limit. It is so easy to get carried away once you begin letting the cash flow. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I get carried away quick.

Yes, used is also a good option especially if we are talking about quality gear. The builds of such gear tend to be extremely good. Granted some used gear can be unaffordable as well depending on what it is. I mean, I would not expect a used D' Agostino piece go for even $5k. However, there is alot of great pieces out there, one almost can't go wrong.
Just my opinion.

MusicDirector said:

Yes, used is also a good option especially if we are talking about quality gear. The builds of such gear tend to be extremely good. Granted some used gear can be unaffordable as well depending on what it is. I mean, I would not expect a used D' Agostino piece go for even $5k. However, there is alot of great pieces out there, one almost can't go wrong.
Just my opinion.

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Eric.......Using Mike's original scenario of $5K as a general starting point for an entry level high-end system was the catalyst for my idea of gaining more system without stretching a modest budget by going with pre-owned gear.

I doubt you will ever see a D'Agostino component for $5K unless it was in a box in pieces after falling from the back of a FedEx truck on the highway.

Mike said:

Not sure it can be quantified since it will vary from person to person. But if I was to take a stab at it, I would say a total system, $5000 or less. Maggie MMG's, Cambridge Integrated, Schiit DAC, Blue Jean or Straight Wire cables....or something to that affect.

But one persons $5000 is another persons $10,000 or $20,000.

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This!

I agree with you guys and honestly, $5k was the number in my head. But I have a few systems I've put together with great used and new pieces and have even gone below that number with excellent result...

Double-D said:

Eric.......Using Mike's original scenario of $5K as a general starting point for an entry level high-end system was the catalyst for my idea of gaining more system without stretching a modest budget by going with pre-owned gear.

I doubt you will ever see a D'Agostino component for $5K unless it was in a box in pieces after falling from the back of a FedEx truck on the highway.

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Yes, exactly what I am saying.
I'm not quite sure myself about "entry-level high end" I'm beginning to think more along the lines of high-end is high-end, mid-fi is mid-fi, etc. without all the sub-titles. I mean, especially these days when I'm beginning to see stuff taking the same build as higher stuff as far as components and layout goes with the only difference being perhaps a feature or two or some extra bling.
I'm also keeping in mind that even a least priced unit from a high-end maker is at least 5 to 10 times better than any mid-fi item in build quality at least. Of course, the better the build, the better the performance and staying power.

Just thinking out loud.

TONEGUY said:

I agree with you guys and honestly, $5k was the number in my head. But I have a few systems I've put together with great used and new pieces and have even gone below that number with excellent result...

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Jeff, will you be posting them. Might be fun to get ideas for a 2nd or third system for some.

TONEGUY said:

I agree with you guys and honestly, $5k was the number in my head. But I have a few systems I've put together with great used and new pieces and have even gone below that number with excellent result...

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Yes, that can certainly be done!
The other factor often not mentioned or forgotten is the subjectivity of our ears as individuals. A system that sounds good to one person, may not be quite to the taste of another and visa versa. I've always believed that while sometimes it might, price does not "always" equal sound quality or dramatic change in it.

Just my opinion.

My experience when dealing with the majors has always been that their better gear usually reveals more music than their lesser stuff. But that being said, it's like buying a used high end car. That 10 year old Porsche may not have the same level of ultimate performance as a brand new one, but it was still built to a very high standard and if well taken care of is still very pleasurable to own and drive.

For me where price hasn't equalled a major jump in quality has been with the more boutique manufacturers, that buy parts in such small quantities, they are paying WAY more for the same caps that ARC does, because they buy 20 at a time instead of 5000. Often times with these manufacturers (though they do build excellent products) you are held ransom for their inability to run a business of scale and it's up to you whether you want a piece of art or a piece of gear. Either approach is valid, but one will cost you more for the same performance.

I feel like a lot of great hifi gear is the same way. A 10 or 20 year old ARC, CJ, or McIntosh (just to name a few) component was still built to a very high standard, and with great care. If I only had a few thousand bucks to spend on a system, I'd definitely buy used.

As far as the comment on finding D'agostino in the used bin cheap, think first generation Krell. The KSA-50 and KSA-100 were great amps in the day and when we sampled a KSA-50 for our Old School column, were all amazed at how good this piece still sounds.

I have a 2002 Boxster that I picked up for $9000, because that's all the dealer would give the guy for a trade in. A few thousand bucks worth of brakes, shocks, tires and battery and I've got a pretty nice car that is still fun to drive.

When I threw my $.02 above, I was thinking new retail prices at my $5,000 budget system maximum price. That's a lot of money for most people to spend on a stereo. I just can't think of the word "budget" if you are spending more than that.

I didn't think of it as - "Whats the least you can spend to get a hi-end sounding system including used equipment"

TONEGUY said:

My experience when dealing with the majors has always been that their better gear usually reveals more music than their lesser stuff. But that being said, it's like buying a used high end car. That 10 year old Porsche may not have the same level of ultimate performance as a brand new one, but it was still built to a very high standard and if well taken care of is still very pleasurable to own and drive.

For me where price hasn't equalled a major jump in quality has been with the more boutique manufacturers, that buy parts in such small quantities, they are paying WAY more for the same caps that ARC does, because they buy 20 at a time instead of 5000. Often times with these manufacturers (though they do build excellent products) you are held ransom for their inability to run a business of scale and it's up to you whether you want a piece of art or a piece of gear. Either approach is valid, but one will cost you more for the same performance.

I feel like a lot of great hifi gear is the same way. A 10 or 20 year old ARC, CJ, or McIntosh (just to name a few) component was still built to a very high standard, and with great care. If I only had a few thousand bucks to spend on a system, I'd definitely buy used.

As far as the comment on finding D'agostino in the used bin cheap, think first generation Krell. The KSA-50 and KSA-100 were great amps in the day and when we sampled a KSA-50 for our Old School column, were all amazed at how good this piece still sounds.

I have a 2002 Boxster that I picked up for $9000, because that's all the dealer would give the guy for a trade in. A few thousand bucks worth of brakes, shocks, tires and battery and I've got a pretty nice car that is still fun to drive.

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My D' Agostino example was merely pointing out expectations. In other words, don't expect to get a Ferrari at a Toyota price used or new. In other words don't bother looking for a $15k used piece expecting to find it for $5k or less or something, not gonna happen.

Your so right, older pieces and yes, I believe even the lesser pieces of the same make are all built to the same standards as their highest piece. They would be shooting themselves in the foot otherwise I would think. In the same line of what you are saying, The lesser piece may not have all the bells and whistles, but does the same good job, has the same staying power, etc. depending on what the individual's needs are.

the professor said:

When I threw my $.02 above, I was thinking new retail prices at my $5,000 budget system maximum price. That's a lot of money for most people to spend on a stereo. I just can't think of the word "budget" if you are spending more than that.

I didn't think of it as - "Whats the least you can spend to get a hi-end sounding system including used equipment"

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Yes, it's not about spending the least or anything like that in either direction. It's about spending what one can afford and still be able to get into a piece or pieces that are considered high-end. Of course, I've seen folks have differences in definitions of what is high-end. I like to try to keep it simple and just pretty much say any piece from a known high end make is high-end, done. That is unless advertised differently by said make.
Just my take on it.

If I had $5k to spend on a system, I'd buy a new pair of Vandersteen 1Cis, $1200. Used CJ or ARC preamp with phono, $1000. Pass Aleph 5 power amp, used, $1000, Rega DAC new - $900, Rega RP3 and cart new $1200. Maybe a couple hundred bucks on wire. Could live with that pretty easily.