YG Acoustics Carmel 2

KeithR said:
I have heard the Estelons at shows and been impressed paired with Concert Fidelity electronics- but a recent experience with ceramic drivers has turned me away from those types of speakers.

As far as SF, I've historically thought the brand was too warm for me (never heard past the Cremona though)- it might be worth a demo now. The Devore Gibbon X is the other wood speaker that interests me, but they are taking forever to get production to dealers.

My Zus aren't the most resolving speaker out there- and I get that. But they have a beguiling combination of free, open, dynamic sound with a huge sound stage and great tone. Its the benefit of not having a crossover. What's interesting is the dealer brought over a KS Emotion cord to use on my Dart with the YGs (which YG recommends)- it indeed was the perfect match. However, the same cord doesn't seem to work at all with the Definitions.
Click to expand...

Two years ago at CES, the Estelons paired with the mega-$80K Chord amps and the Jadis table/arm and AT Supreme was outstanding. Finesse was their middle name.

Now they have a newer SOTA model.

Personally, I think the Estelons look may put people off.
 
KeithR said:
Onward to the Magico/Vac demo...

It was at a local dealer in a large, dedicated room- I'd estimate 20' x 30'. The S5s were on an all Vac setup (the 450s) with Synergistic cabling- quite a few room treatments, ART, etc. They just seemed a bit dynamically restrained and while the dealer professed how easy they are to drive, I felt the opposite. The S5s had a very extended treble, but natural and not bright- it was perhaps a bit softer beryllium than the Focal demo I heard a few months ago. Whether that was the amps or the speakers, hard to say. Mids were reasonably fleshed out, but not as full or transparent as on the YGs. The S5s also didn't disappear like the narrow baffle YGs, but are more like my own speakers (which use 2 10" drivers as well, only full-range). On the (in)famous Magico bass, I think the warmer bass of the S series wasn't a good match for tetrode tubes but output was fine for my taste. I could feel the woofer location if that makes any sense. The dealer did say the S5 has a darker balance than the S3 which I found interesting. That said, I concluded I would want the extra bass of the S5s and to hear the S5s again on SS. I just didn't feel the S5s drew me into the music enough or were dynamic this particular morning, but since Magico is so sensitive to inputs its hard to say what the culprit was and of course this wasn't in my own room.

Overall, I think BlueFox has the S5 setup I'd like to hear- big Pass or Constellation Class A/B to really deliver effortless sound. I know some folks on this forum are going to disagree, but that's what I heard...

I also went to Pitch Perfect Audio's music night last night and heard the A23 Hommage and Shindo Latours- yes, a 180 degree, totally different kind of sound. But each had an effortless and tonality that was lacking in my morning demo, probably at the expense of some resolution. Clearly different strokes for different folks. The Shindos are 100db and the A23s 94db. btw, the A23 has remarkable presence, but is limited to certain music (they have no real bass)- if you're a 60s jazz head, this might be the speaker for you. I found the finish beautiful in person and usually I'm not into the retro stuff at all.
Click to expand...

Yes, as one who has heard different amps on the S5s. :) when you start to talk about all that room Rx, my warning bells go off.

Of course different rooms, etc... :)

What were the sources?
 
Myles,

What do you think the room RX is doing..? Keith did not mention if room treatments were absorbing or diffusing , or both.....
 
a.wayne said:
Myles,

What do you think the room RX is doing..? Keith did not mention if room treatments were absorbing or diffusing , or both.....
Click to expand...

Read about the Synergistic room Rx. I think it's been reviewed and talked about in several mags and forums. I think Breuninger and Fremer reviewed them IIRC.
 
Honestly, did not care, about these speakers at Axpona, sound was just ok.

IMO- kinda boring- actually room was a little dull


Strads/Pass was a fantastic room, also Vivid G3 and CAT JL5 (one of my favorite)


Klaus from Odyssey Audio, had a lovely system, all for Only 7k (speakers/amps etc...) loved it!:congrats:
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Yes, as one who has heard different amps on the S5s. :) when you start to talk about all that room Rx, my warning bells go off.

Of course different rooms, etc... :)

What were the sources?
Click to expand...

I hear you, Myles. As I've reflected on it further, I really did toss most of it up to room as I've heard the S5s sound better. It was on a Mac CDP on my demo CD. Next time I'm in the city, I'll look you up :)

a. wayne- several bass traps in the corners and first reflection panels (although up really high). and then all the synergistic stuff.
 
KeithR said:
I hear you, Myles. As I've reflected on it further, I really did toss most of it up to room as I've heard the S5s sound better. It was on a Mac CDP on my demo CD. Next time I'm in the city, I'll look you up :)

a. wayne- several bass traps in the corners and first reflection panels (although up really high). and then all the synergistic stuff.
Click to expand...

You are more than welcome to drop by. :)

We'll have to spool up some tape.
 
Heard a YG speaker (a three way with the woofer on the bottom - do not remember the exact model) exactly once at a GTT room during an RMAF show.

Astonishingly neutral - playing a digital recording of Prokofiev's "Lt. Kije". Full Soulution stack driving them in a mid-size room (down stairs). Just breathtaking in its absolute purity. I was impressed by the speakers and the ease of the amplifiers. A very good speaker to my ears.

Rather on the "pricey" side of the world. The entire rig came in at about the price of an entry level house - as I recall about $200k or so. From this one would expect excellent sound - but unlike many systems available at this price point this one actually delivered the goods.

Very nice - very expensive.
 
Not long after Magico S1 mk 2 graced my listening room, I got a chance to borrow a pair of Carmel 2s.

The first impression: where is the bass ? Those speakers certainly sound very light on their feet.

I'm a bit surprised to read KeithR comment, that 'bass out of this small of a cabinet was killer- tight and hard hitting'. The impression I got is quite the oposite actually, in line with what John Atkinson have found out: '

The low-frequency warble tones on Editor's Choice began shelving down below 125Hz'
'kick drums have their most energy in the midbass'

He have posted his in-room response where you can see a deep midbass shelving (Red = YG, Blue = Kef Blade) and this exactly how the Carmels sound in my listening room:

1215YGC2fig6.jpg

- bass shelved down below 125Hz.


I have yet to try to move them closer to the front wall to see if that will bring the midbass back (they are now 4 feet from the front wall). As is, even the dimunitive Harbeth P3-ESR (not to mention Harbeth M30.1 or Dynaudio Special 25 monitors) sounded as much bigger speakers.

Other than that - they are very clear and transparent, but I don't think I'm hearing anything I have't heard from the S1 mk 2s. Based on my aural memory (which can be deceptive !), Magicos throw even deeper soundstage (both however disappear completely), were smoother on top and had much more grunt down low, the mid bass and low bass were much more present.

Both are low in sensitivity.
 
Thanks for sharing Adam. Great post and I enjoyed reading it. However, I compared both speakers extensively with my amplifier (Pass INT-60) and Carmel 2 was the clear winner to me. It was a more easier to drive and frankly I found the bass to be far superior than the S1MK2 with my amplifier. However, the Magico's treble resolution was very good if not maybe a hair better.

These are two the top loudspeaker manufactures on the market today. They keep going back and forth with innovation. However, I feel Yoav Geva of YG is by far the most gifted loud speaker designer in the world today. His Cross over technology is proprietary and special to YG. His new Sonja XV flagship has surpassed the Q7MK 2 and probably the more overpriced and limited WAMM.

In terms of proprietary relevant technology in my opinion of course. Sound of course I feel in the end so matter what the cost is still subjective to the customer.

Love both Magico and YG. I feel one can't go wrong with either. They have certainly surpassed Wilson as far an American made dynamic driver loudspeaker companies.
 
Elberoth - to be fair, I said I believe they hit only mid-30s which isn't tremendous 20hz room flattening stuff, but that the impact in my smaller room (14' x 16') was quite nice. You have had Alexias in your room as I recall, which would blow me out of my room :) I do find the Hailey a more tonally balanced speaker and told the dealer that it was the one I would think of ultimately purchasing. I thought the Carmel had more bass than a monitor that came through my room a few months prior. They were 2' or so from my rear wall.

The Magico S5s that JA measured show drop off in the bass as well - I think its just a function of sealed bass optimized for articulation rather than output. The original S5 had a similar arrangement in the Soundstage measurements.
 
mdp632 said:
Thanks for sharing Adam. Great post and I enjoyed reading it. However, I compared both speakers extensively with my amplifier (Pass INT-60) and Carmel 2 was the clear winner to me. It was a more easier to drive and frankly I found the bass to be far superior than the S1MK2 with my amplifier. However, the Magico's treble resolution was very good if not maybe a hair better.

These are two the top loudspeaker manufactures on the market today. They keep going back and forth with innovation. However, I feel Yoav Geva of YG is by far the most gifted loud speaker designer in the world today. His Cross over technology is proprietary and special to YG. His new Sonja XV flagship has surpassed the Q7MK 2 and probably the more overpriced and limited WAMM.

In terms of proprietary relevant technology in my opinion of course. Sound of course I feel in the end so matter what the cost is still subjective to the customer.

Love both Magico and YG. I feel one can't go wrong with either. They have certainly surpassed Wilson as far an American made dynamic driver loudspeaker companies.
Click to expand...

All 3 are laterals IMO, so my version ..?

WA, Magico and YG are fantastic made American Dynamic speakers , you cant go wrong selecting one or the other ...


:)


Regards ...
 
I've installed my share of Carmel 2s (and Carmel 1s as well), and I've found out they are true chameleons. Depending on the room and positioning, they could sound very full and punchy, or thin and brittle. And surprisingly, the usual audiophile knowledge didn't apply, as I tried them along the long wall in one of our smaller rooms, thinking that would give us the best bass, and they just didn't.

Adam, did you have a dealer install and position them for you?

In our (much) larger main room, with the speakers 3 meters from the back wall, they had a lot more bass! I've actually had people A/B the Carmel 2s and the Hailey in that same (big) room, and the person picked the Carmel 2. Of course we all heard the Haileys had more bass, but the Carmel 2s had enough bass for him.

Here's a video I shot of the Carmel 2s playing in our big room:

https://www.facebook.com/AlmaMusicAudio/videos/564124373744698/

PS: to be fair, I've also heard the Magico S1 (not mk2), and I thought it was a great speaker. Much better than the Q1, for instance.
 
The Carmel 2 drops of after 50Hz. But that is not the problem and should be expected from the speaker of this size. The problem is bass shelving from 125Hz downward. Because of that, thay sound unbalanced in my listening room.

Believe it or not, but the super tiny Harbeths P3-PSR and ATC SCM-11 (both sealed box designs) both sounded like much bigger, better balanced speakers in my room.

YGs sound very lightweight (but not bright) and I just can't enjoy listening to music because of that.

They remind me of NHT Super Zeros (with 4 inch midwoofer and 1-2 liters of internal volume) - impressive mids and soundstaging, but no substance to the sound. Of course, they go much louder than the NHTs because of the larger woofer, but the unmistakeable lightweight signature remains.

I would very much like to hear the larger Heileys, with an extra 8-inch woofer, as otherwise those YGs show promise mids and up.
 
Since we're quoting from reviews, reviewers and their imperfect rooms...

Chris Martens, for Hi-Fi+ (on the cover): http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/yg-acoustics-carmel-2-floorstanding-loudspeaker/
"For a speaker that is not terribly large in volume, the Carmel 2 demonstrates truly astonishing power handling capabilities and vibrant, full-bodied dynamics. It also belies its modest size by serving up surprisingly deep, powerful, and extended bass. You can happily play rhythmic and percussion-orientated material through the Carmel 2, such as the bouncy, funky, and appropriately named ‘Bass and Drums’ from John Paul Jones’ Zooma [Discipline Global Mobile] without feeling any need for a subwoofer or larger speaker. Crank up the volume to realistic levels and the Carmel 2 just grins and plays along, typically taking anything you might care to play in its stride. The same holds true when playing pipe organ material rich in low-frequency content, which the Carmel 2 happily reproduces with powerful and shuddering depth tempered by an excellent measure of control."
"Such impressive performance should not be all that surprising given two factors in the Carmel 2’s design. First, the speaker’s drivers and especially its crossover network were developed with high power-handling in mind, and second Carmel 2’s usable bass response extends all the way down to 32Hz, which counts as genuinely low bass by any rational standard. Unless you like listening to subsonic blasts at near deafening levels, you should find that the Carmel 2 serves admirably as a satisfyingly full range loudspeaker—or at least it does when used in mid-sized rooms like mine."

Also:

Carmel™ 2 appears on the front cover of the August-September 2015 issue of Canada HiFi.
Inside is an excellent review, which can also be found online here.
The writer gave YG Acoustics™ the highest honor, by purchasing the review pair for his own reference system.
A sample comment from the article: “I tried Bach’s Passacaglia and Fugue to see how well the Carmel would fare on deep organ notes, and I could not have wanted for more. The whole room was energized.”

and another:


Enjoy the Music has published an excellent review of Carmel™ 2. The article can be found here.
Reviewer Phil Gold concluded the test by stating "I just have to keep this pair", and purchased the speakers.
Mr. Gold is one of eleven reviewers worldwide who have purchased YG Acoustics™ speakers for their reference systems, a number that we are very proud of.
Additional comments by Mr. Gold: "I love how YG Acoustics have managed to keep the wonderful qualities of the Carmel but add so much to the lower frequency articulation, the midrange clarity, the openness of the upper frequencies and the overall level of realism."
"I found myself completely unable to play short excerpts, the sound so captivating I simply had to play it through to the end. One moment passionate, the next haunting and then almost frightening, this is an amazing test of a system's ability to reproduce instrumental color and the most intricate detail." “Serious weight, presence, impact, clarity. Even in the deep bass and all the way up to the top registers” “…lower frequency articulation, the midrange clarity, the openness of the upper frequencies and the overall level of realism …I just have to keep this pair.”




 
Adam, I don't doubt your results. I only ask you not to doubt mine (and the reviewer's!).
As I said, they are true chameleons. I've faced situations/rooms where we had to work a little harder for the bass to show up. That's why I asked if you had dealer help in setting them up.
 
Speaking of reviews :

The Carmel 2's voltage sensitivity is specified as 87dB/2.83V/m; my estimate was less than that, at 84dB(B)/2.83V/m. The impedance is specified as 4 ohms, with a minimum magnitude of 3.5 ohms. Fig.1 shows my measurement of the YGA's impedance magnitude (solid trace) and electrical phase angle (dotted). The impedance drops below 4 ohms only between 150 and 400Hz, and the minimum value is 3.68 ohms at 220Hz. While the phase angle is occasionally high, the amplitude is also high at those frequencies, ameliorating any problems. Note the increasingly capacitive phase angle below the sealed-box woofer-tuning frequency of 60Hz, which suggests there is a high-value series capacitor in the woofer feed.

Serious amplification necessary, it's actually 81dB/w/M ..... !!

Aside Very impressive measurements ...!!!


Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/...-loudspeaker-measurements#HUJC4ERM2gTCUtCR.99
 
Elberoth said:
The Carmel 2 drops of after 50Hz. But that is not the problem and should be expected from the speaker of this size. The problem is bass shelving from 125Hz downward. Because of that, thay sound unbalanced in my listening room.

Believe it or not, but the super tiny Harbeths P3-PSR and ATC SCM-11 (both sealed box designs) both sounded like much bigger, better balanced speakers in my room.

YGs sound very lightweight (but not bright) and I just can't enjoy listening to music because of that.

They remind me of NHT Super Zeros (with 4 inch midwoofer and 1-2 liters of internal volume) - impressive mids and soundstaging, but no substance to the sound. Of course, they go much louder than the NHTs because of the larger woofer, but the unmistakeable lightweight signature remains.

I would very much like to hear the larger Heileys, with an extra 8-inch woofer, as otherwise those YGs show promise mids and up.
Click to expand...

I see you still have the MSB202, did you try the YG's with them ...?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top