Why You Need More Than Just "Trusting Your Ears"

While measurements can be interesting, your ears are all you need. As long as it sounds great to you then you are done from a music perspective. Granted, you might change something and that makes the system sound better, but it is your ears that tell you that.
 
Mikado463 said:
and with that being said Marty, remember, everything heard can be measured but not everything measured can be heard !
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I thought the quote was the other way, many things about hearing we don't know how to measure, or what to measure. Yet we hear differences.

But to the point of the OP, there is a benefit to utilizing tools to understand the measurable actions the equipment is having in the room.
 
I have had my Porsche for 7 years. I am starting to think about selling it. Maybe to get the Macan all electric in 2 years when it comes out. Does that make me a flipper, or someone who enjoys music, but upgrades when the time is right.
 
I use mine to check toe in angle and equal distance to listening position. Then I play with the cat for awhile. Multiuse tool, not just for audio.

BlueFox said:
I have one that I use to make sure my chair is centered. I don’t obsess over it though since I sit in different positions (slouch, upright, forward, back) in the chair.
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nc42acc said:
I use mine to check toe in angle and equal distance to listening position. Then I play with the cat for awhile. Multiuse tool, not just for audio.
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That’s the truth. I get worn out using it to play with the cats. They never seem to get tired of chasing the light.
 
Kingrex said:
I thought the quote was the other way, many things about hearing we don't know how to measure, or what to measure. Yet we hear differences.
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Exactly... we simply cannot measure everything we hear... and those things do have a large impact on how we enjoy our music.

As Mike has in his tag line, which I totally agree with:
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
 
Randy Myers said:
Exactly... we simply cannot measure everything we hear... and those things do have a large impact on how we enjoy our music.

As Mike has in his tag line, which I totally agree with:
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
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My business as an example. I don't have a reliable way to measure RF in a room or in a circuit. Maybe there is a device. I have seen some that try to "sniff" it out. But i have never seen a scope with a screen showing magnitute and frequency band. And then there is the question of what frequency band at what magnitude impacts what audible and or inaudible spectrum of music playback.

There is also the issue of knowing and not knowing. I know one audiophile who was happy with his playback until a fellow audiophile used a microphone and exposed a suck out of bass at some frequency. He can not change it, and it is now something he is somewhat fixated on. Kind of like noise you didn't know was there till its gone. But in his case, its a artifact he can't repair unless he changes rooms. Or maybe starts applying a swarm of subwoofers all over his living room. So, do you really want to know.

FWIW, I will always support the use of tools in an intelligent manner. But be prepared for what they may tell you. And also be trained in how to use the tool correctly and too your advantage.
 
nc42acc said:
Anybody use a laser measure?
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I use a laser measure to measure the exact position of the speakers with respect to the room (distances from walls and toe angle) and the position/location of the listening chair. I write down the positions so that if I move any of the speakers or listening chair I can always go back to the original position. The laser is easier to use, faster, and more accurate than a measuring tape.
 
nicoff said:
Our ears cannot be trusted. Our brain can be tricked into thinking that what we are hearing is great when in reality it is not.
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How one's brain perceives something is reality for that listener. If my brain is tricking me into thinking something sounds good, then it sounds good for all practical purposes. I don't need scientific demonstrations or wave forms.
 
I own a $4000 sound level meter that will do center octave readings as well as "A" and "C" scales. I have never used it to measure my system, I use it for work. If I can't tell by now what sounds good to me I should have bought a Bose Wave radio and saved a bunch of money.
 
The purpose and reason for the measurements is to check that the controlled stimuli (the controlled sound generated by software) is being accurately reproduced by your system and that it gets to the outside of your ears properly. The measurements are not meant to determine what is going on inside anybody's brain.

For example, if your audio system has a blown tweeter, or it is out of phase, or the channels are reversed, or has a malfunctioning crossover, or a burned fuse, the controlled stimuli CANNOT be reproduced accurately by the audio system. In other words, the sound that gets to the outside of your ears (the microphone) is NOT accurate. It does not matter if the listener has golden ears; the ears received a faulty stimuli (Garbage IN) and whatever the listener thinks it hears remains faulty (Garbage OUT). Put another way, you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken shit. The listener may still like his interpretation of the sound, which is perfectly fine, but that does not keep it from being faulty.

Since this site is primarily visited by subjective audiophiles, I am not at all surprised by the reluctance by some to the thought of using measurements for the purpose of improving the sound reproduced by their systems. Our hobby has been dominated by subjective reviews/reviewers for decades which have led, in my opinion, to the proliferation of myths, outrageous claims (green pens, rocks, etc.) that have earned audiophiles a bad name. I am actually encouraged, however, that the internet now offers to the interested hobbyists the ability to explore high-end audio in a more objective way and debunk myths/claims that have been proliferated for decades. Ultimately, everyone can have access to information that will help each of them reach their own conclusions.

Regardless of what a person subjectively thinks that he hears, Galileo's famous phrase comes to mind: "Eppur si muove".
 
For example, if your audio system has a blown tweeter, or it is out of phase, or the channels are reversed, or has a malfunctioning crossover, or a burned fuse, the controlled stimuli CANNOT be reproduced accurately by the audio system.
nicoff said:
T

I think most of the issues you point to here would be readily apparent to any seasoned audiophile without the use of tools. All but the crossover. I am not exactly sure what a leaking cap would do. But a Blown tweeter, or fuse. Very apparent. Out of phase or channel reversed. Anyone who spent 10 minutes checking these would hear it and get it right.

IMO, its the room speaker interactions that are not as apparent that tools reveal. The more subtle dips and peaks. I'm not sure about the compression of soundstage or the size of the sweet spot. Do tools measure for this?

But then the can of worms is opened. Does a microphone and computer software give answers. What if it says you have a 6db suck out at 100 herts. Does the software say, set a subwoofer here in the room, adjust the phase, intensity and crossover to these settings and it will go up by 5db. Does it say pull your speakers forward/backward 1.5" and out/in 2". Or are you left staring at your tool thinking, my system sucks!!! What can I do. Hmmm, maybe new speakers will solve the issue:D

I think tools are excellent. But just because you bought a chisel does not make you a carpenter. I would have no idea what to do with the data. I would only be able to randomly start moving stuff around. Maybe if I spent some amount of weeks on more specific forums focused on software analysis and room speaker interactions might I start to untangle the web in a more "scientific" manner. But I believe it would be a long road of trial and error. If that were something a person had the time and inclination to engage in, then more power to you. In the end I would say that person is going to get a better result than the one who only goes by ear. So I agree with you. But I also throw caution as I don't believe it is as simple as some appear to make it be.
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Re: Why You Need More Than Just "Trusting Your Ears"

My thoughts on this is music is more than acoustics. That is only one part. Headphones and speakers present a very different experience partly because you are not physically feeling the music around your body. Are you also measuring what you feel in the hairs on your skin? Or how about the combination of sound and touch? The human experience changes when senses are combined. For example music with sight like in movies or concerts drastically changes the experience. Way too complex for any measurement system. I have measured all my rooms and use it for course adjustments. However I have never preferred a perfectly measured room if that is even possible. You have to use all your senses to get the ultimate experience.

This is why I think the objective measurements are a limited tool. Reviews in ASR which only give measurement results only provide half the picture.

If I only had one choice, ears or measurements. I choose ears.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
 
Exactly....

"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

Hear, feel, experience, sometimes what I call the warm and fuzzies... etc., etc.
 
Re: Why You Need More Than Just "Trusting Your Ears"

TheGemState said:
My thoughts on this is music is more than acoustics. That is only one part. Headphones and speakers present a very different experience partly because you are not physically feeling the music around your body. Are you also measuring what you feel in the hairs on your skin? Or how about the combination of sound and touch? The human experience changes when senses are combined. For example music with sight like in movies or concerts drastically changes the experience. Way too complex for any measurement system. I have measured all my rooms and use it for course adjustments. However I have never preferred a perfectly measured room if that is even possible. You have to use all your senses to get the ultimate experience.

This is why I think the objective measurements are a limited tool. Reviews in ASR which only give measurement results only provide half the picture.

If I only had one choice, ears or measurements. I choose ears.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
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Just asking, not challenging, when you measure a room and it shows dips and peaks, how do you go about deciding what can be done to fix them? Did you just start trying things? Did a pro who knew what to do with the data help?
 
Re: Why You Need More Than Just "Trusting Your Ears"

Kingrex said:
Just asking, not challenging, when you measure a room and it shows dips and peaks, how do you go about deciding what can be done to fix them? Did you just start trying things? Did a pro who knew what to do with the data help?
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I did a lot of online research and bought a book to find methods to fix the issues you described. That research pointed me in the direction to make changes, then listen and remeasure. Not everything can be fixed and some times compromises have to be made. Alot of trial and error. Things like speaker placement, crossover settings, sub setting, room treatment placement and most importantly synergy between components/cables are critical to making an experience you enjoy. The measurements just show obvious things that are broken to go after but will not tell you if you will like the sound.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
 
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