Why no turntable?

Mike said:
Living with a turntable and actually using it also gives you another point of reference for sound. As I survey what some customers like and what they don’t like, I can’t help but notice a trend. Those who have not ever lived with vinyl/tape or not lived with it for a very long time, have a different version of a reference sound for digital than those with vinyl/tape in their systems. They tend to steer towards more artificial sounds: hyper detailed, even bright, thin, etched, processed and frankly, without even knowing it. They keep looking for more and more “detail” and acquaint that with their reference. This DAC has more “detail”, so it must be better. Folks who have a turntable/tape, tend towards more organic, full, natural sound and are not looking for hyper detail. I can’t help but wonder if some of the bad digital out there is retraining our ears on what is good sound. It’s funny, even some of the DAC’s that built their reputation on R2R have switched over to chips to get more “detail”. Not good. Not natural.
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Again, I have to respectfully disagree. I grew up with records in the 70s and while initially digital had some attributes that you describe, not so with more current quality DACs. If anything what I realize is how overly colored analog often sounds, how apparent poor wow and flutter can be, how irritating pops/ticks can be not to mention how inconvenient it is having to get up, and down, and up, and down to change songs. Again, with very good analog it can be spectacular but for many (most?) folks with more modest budgets, say around $5K for a source, vinyl isn't very enjoyable for critical listening. Casual listening, sure.
 
sb6 said:
Again, I have to respectfully disagree. I grew up with records in the 70s and while initially digital had some attributes that you describe, not so with more current quality DACs. If anything what I realize is how overly colored analog often sounds, how apparent poor wow and flutter can be, how irritating pops/ticks can be not to mention how inconvenient it is having to get up, and down, and up, and down to change songs. Again, with very good analog it can be spectacular but for many (most?) folks with more modest budgets, say around $5K for a source, vinyl isn't very enjoyable for critical listening. Casual listening, sure.
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So we are back to the digital convenience argument vice SQ and of course digital convenience always wins out in comparison to the human involvement required with analog-for those that love digital.
 
mep said:
So we are back to the digital convenience argument vice SQ and of course digital convenience always wins out in comparison to the human involvement required with analog-for those that love digital.
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I assume you missed the, "Not to mention" in my post.
 
In many ways I agree with both sides of the discussion, however there are a couple points I want to make here. First off, $15k for a source component, any source component, weather it be analog or digital is a lot for average or even considerably above average working folks. Please don't loose perspective. Secondly, I would also argue that $5k can obtain a pretty darn good source component, either digital or analog.

I believe my newly assembled analog setup is pretty darn good, to me any way. I can hear how analog "can" be better then digital, but I also can see short comings. I am loving listening to vinyl (surprise to hear me say that, right?), but in no way will I say it is hands down "better" than my digital. It is not, it is different, but certainly not hands down better.

Listen to the new MoFi One-Step Yes album and be prepared to be blown away, even on my $5k'ish turntable setup... and listen Vanessa Fernandez's new album in DSD512 download (19 GB in size) and be prepared to be blow away by my modest digital setup...

Again both can be and are great. Both can be and are enjoyable. They simply are different.
 
I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I generally feel that there are no right or wrong answers to this question. I will share my experiences and am interested to hear if others feel the same.

My experience tells me that what we listen to could and maybe should ultimately inform the delivery system of that music. I primarily listen to new music. My listening is 90% digital because streaming allows me to explore new music very effectively and relatively inexpensively. When I have purchased new music on vinyl because it was really something I enjoyed streaming, I was invariably disappointed with the sound. Of course, there certainly are exceptions to this, but generally I have found this to be true. The magic of vinyl for me has been finding used records of older music that sound great. When I compare some of these gems to the digital versions they pale in comparison. Most of the remasters that are being released are refreshed versions of music that was made long ago. Those too tend to sound better on vinyl. When I look at being 90% digital it is ultimately because I am listening to new music 90% of the time. That 10% of the time when I want to revisit my childhood, however, there is no substitute for firing up the turntable.

There you have it, the answer is that I need both options. How much I spend on each moving forward, however, is going to be determined by time used. Good thing there is lots of discussion on streamers and DAC's on this forum!
 
Kingrex said:
$5k does not go far with digital when you apply it to a server, dac, cables and LPS for Modem Router and an audiophile switch.
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I don't worry about Modem, Router, or Switch since I keep all my digital music internally on the server. Yes, with a well made dedicated machine my digital did go a bit over... but as I put in the other reply, when everything is added up I feel both analog and digital, in my system, are pretty darn close in total pricing. Yes I could easily go up with things such as a better Phono Stage in my analog, for example.

I stand by that you can get very good digital for $5k (Benchmark, Mytec, Wyred 4 Sound, Teac, etc., etc., with a solid computer dedicated to music). Mine is a bit over that.
 
Kingrex said:
$5k does not go far with digital when you apply it to a server, dac, cables and LPS for Modem Router and an audiophile switch.
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my experience has been the polar opposite... $5k can get one an exceptional digital front end.

for anyone willing to do the technical research and thoughtfully apply that knowledge, a digital front end can be assembled from consumer grade computing and networking gear. this leaves quite a lot of cash for the DAC... and there are quite a few available in this price range that are excellent.

also, if i ever feel the need to upgrade my digital source, 100% of the money spent doing so will go towards a DAC... the absolute last place i would spend any money is for audiophile computing and networking gear.

in terms of analog, i am quite happy to hear randy has assembled a vinyl rig for $5k that he can get the same enjoyment from as his digital source. i would have guessed it would have taken 3x to get those results.
 
MPW said:
I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I generally feel that there are no right or wrong answers to this question. I will share my experiences and am interested to hear if others feel the same.

My experience tells me that what we listen to could and maybe should ultimately inform the delivery system of that music. I primarily listen to new music. My listening is 90% digital because streaming allows me to explore new music very effectively and relatively inexpensively. When I have purchased new music on vinyl because it was really something I enjoyed streaming, I was invariably disappointed with the sound. Of course, there certainly are exceptions to this, but generally I have found this to be true. The magic of vinyl for me has been finding used records of older music that sound great. When I compare some of these gems to the digital versions they pale in comparison. Most of the remasters that are being released are refreshed versions of music that was made long ago. Those too tend to sound better on vinyl. When I look at being 90% digital it is ultimately because I am listening to new music 90% of the time. That 10% of the time when I want to revisit my childhood, however, there is no substitute for firing up the turntable.

There you have it, the answer is that I need both options. How much I spend on each moving forward, however, is going to be determined by time used. Good thing there is lots of discussion on streamers and DAC's on this forum!
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Thank you and I see where you are coming from. Since I am not huge on much of the new music (as in pop, hip hop, etc., but I do have some of all categories) I find that many new releases are excellent in vinyl, however certainly not all. The same is true in digital, but since I do not stream most new digital for me is downloads, so almost always high rez.
 
aKnyght said:
my experience has been the polar opposite... $5k can get one an exceptional digital front end.

for anyone willing to do the technical research and thoughtfully apply that knowledge, a digital front end can be assembled from consumer grade computing and networking gear. this leaves quite a lot of cash for the DAC... and there are quite a few available in this price range that are excellent.

also, if i ever feel the need to upgrade my digital source, 100% of the money spent doing so will go towards a DAC... the absolute last place i would spend any money is for audiophile computing and networking gear.

in terms of analog, i am quite happy to hear randy has assembled a vinyl rig for $5k that he can get the same enjoyment from as his digital source. i would have guessed it would have taken 3x to get those results.
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The Rega RP8 is a pretty awesome table, and I caught it on a great close out price. Also on TAS grade A list. I prefer MM cartridges and the 2M Black is Ortofon's top of the line MM cartridge... the SimAudio is economical (ok pretty cheap) but Mike called it "crazy good", which I tend to agree. Even at retail those three come in at under $5k, like $4200-$4300. Add record cleaning machine... cleaning supplies and you are about $5k.
 
Randy Myers said:
The Rega RP8 is a pretty awesome table, and I caught it on a great close out price. Also on TAS grade A list. I prefer MM cartridges and the 2M Black is Ortofon's top of the line MM cartridge... the SimAudio is economical (ok pretty cheap) but Mike called it "crazy good", which I tend to agree. Even at retail those three come in at under $5k, like $4200-$4300. Add record cleaning machine... cleaning supplies and you are about $5k.
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I don't have high end " stuff", but I really enjoy the sound that comes from my Lumin, my little vinyl rig, the Classic VPI ( the first one) my Chinook and my amp and pre. Headphones or speakers its a joy to just listen to music and not have to count the $$$ signs. But I tell ya, I've heard Mikes system at his home and I would be in total heaven with that. Maybe one day, maybe one day.
 
You got a nice system Chris! Way beyond intro level in my view.

I know I will never be able to afford the level of gear that Mike has, so I don't worry about it :).... but if I ever win the lottery Mike, I am coming to see ya :)....
 
I’ve contributed my opinion to this before.. but now under quarantine I’m thinking I should look into building out that aspect of my set up. I think it would be a good 30k to get a analog rig/phono pre to compete with the digital side. If the market rebounds, and we get people back buying MBS (mortgage backed securities) I’ll think about it.


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It is more important to get something that you are happy with than feeling you have to spend as much as your "other side". I will eventually get a better phone stage, but I am totally happy with the RP8!
 
I use to mess with internal hardware and software mods under the guidance of Alrainbow. I actually had a pretty darn nice sounding setup. But honestly, it comes no where near the performance of my Mojo server.

I now have an STST Motus II TT with a Hana ML cartridge. Allnic H1201 phono preamp.
I have the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC and the Deja Vu server with his latest Root Ram Linus Software.

Similar to Randy, on first blush many album sound similar. Then some are quite different. In particular a Qobuz Paul Simon is way better than the vinyl that is too thin and fragile. But I pulled out a Ray Charles and the horns, vocals and piano are so much more alive on the vinyl.
The new reissue vinyl is stunning for its quiet, dynamics and realism on either source. Sometimes I flip between the 2 and I just cant tell which is vinyl or digital. They are that close.
 
You would not need a turntable if you are not aware how the source of recording plays an important factor.

IMO having a turntable play digital mastered recordings does not make sense in most cases unless your digital is inferior and needs some work, besides these cartridges are not cheap and need to be dedicated to the very best analog recordings, ones you can’t simply stream!

It’s no doubt a financial and time commitment to bring the best out of vinyl, which in the end can be called a hobby.




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The more I listen great albums sound great but crappy albums sound rather crappy.... with my digital even crap sounds ok... that is really the difference. From here on I will only be investing in top notch albums.

The Rega emphasizes this even more showing how bad recordings/pressings are bad and great recording/pressings are great.
 
I’ve been comparing a lot of my vinyl to its digital counterparts. All I can say is that I’m glad I have a good vinyl rig in addition to my digital one. The versions are sometimes very different and I never know which will sound best. I don’t have a lot of duplicates though as I’ve always had a vinyl rig and didn’t re-buy my vinyl library in CD form.
 
Im gonna change my position. Assume I have the best of the best vinyl of something, and the best of the best digital file. Not even the same album. Just I found a great copy of something.

I have not found a digital file that has the same level of natural purity and tone as vinyl has. This is especially true with vocals and unamplified instruments. Digital excels at pop, rap and rock. Digital just can't do what vinyl does on classical, jazz and chicks with guitar music. The vinyl is more accurate and harmonically complete. It has a more realistic recreation of being there.

This is a comparison between 2 sources, both about $13k. Digital maybe more like 11k. The big jump was getting a "real" TT. A $3k table is not the same as a $10k table. When you leave Project, Rega and step up, the world changes for vinyl. Those tables are not the same game.

When I played in the $6k vinyl to $11K digital, the digital was many times better on all source material and genre. The higher level table vaults ahead of the digital on the above noted genre. I just can't get digital to bridge the gap with my best files in rhe hard drive via HQ player. Its close on some. Digital is very very good. It's just a tad behind a really good piece of vinyl.
 
Kingrex said:
Im gonna change my position. Assume I have the best of the best vinyl of something, and the best of the best digital file. Not even the same album. Just I found a great copy of something.

I have not found a digital file that has the same level of natural purity and tone as vinyl has. This is especially true with vocals and unamplified instruments. Digital excels at pop, rap and rock. Digital just can't do what vinyl does on classical, jazz and chicks with guitar music. The vinyl is more accurate and harmonically complete. It has a more realistic recreation of being there.

This is a comparison between 2 sources, both about $13k. Digital maybe more like 11k. The big jump was getting a "real" TT. A $3k table is not the same as a $10k table. When you leave Project, Rega and step up, the world changes for vinyl. Those tables are not the same game.

When I played in the $6k vinyl to $11K digital, the digital was many times better on all source material and genre. The higher level table vaults ahead of the digital on the above noted genre. I just can't get digital to bridge the gap with my best files in rhe hard drive via HQ player. Its close on some. Digital is very very good. It's just a tad behind a really good piece of vinyl.
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Well said, and also notice the 3D a great vinyl setup can bring. Compare on an album like Ben Webster meets Oscar Peterson. The digital file (24/192) cut from the same master sounds very different from the vinyl pressing (right from the tapes).

And I agree with you whole heartedly on tone and harmonics.

Since I started this thread, it has put a huge smile on my face every day to read wonderful posts like yours and Randy’s, among others. The whole point of my OP was that we can and should enjoy both. Isn’t that what the hobby is all about?

It’s not unlike modern sports cars that have different driving modes. Isn’t it a lot more fun to have options rather than just one “mode”?

Not to start a controversy, but I will bet once you discover your great vinyl rig, you will enjoy your system and your music even more.
 
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