Why CD's May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

Any variation in the time domain is a perturbation to many.
Paul,
First we can't hear digital, only analog. So everything we hear, is analog whether it's sourced from analog or digital encoding. Second, digital is superior in the time domain. There are no speed variations, wow & flutter, etc, etc. with "digital", as there is with pure analog formats.
"Objectively", digital is superior. As noted a thousand times, "subjectively", another story entirely. Now it's simply preference. No "best", "better", etc, etc....except the the beholder. I've heard analog sound "better" than digital...and vice versa. Our preferences are just that.

cheers

AJ
 
Well if you think about it the live performance is not really "live" anyway. They are very much dependent on microphones, amplifiers, speakers, etc., etc. The only true live performance is an artist sitting there playing and singing without amplification.

I remember visiting our daughter up in Washington and our son in laws best friend was visiting. He is an amazing musician. He would get up early each morning and sit on the back porch with his guitar and play for a bit. I would grab a cup of coffee and sit out there with him, just enjoying what felt like a personal concert. That is true live...

Anyway, what I very much enjoy the most is digital downloads now. At their best I feel they sound as good as anything, even vinyl, with vastly easier to enjoy (no cleaning and care that is very much necessary with vinyl) and much "blacker".... personally to me DSD is by far what I enjoy the most...
 
Paul,
First we can't hear digital, only analog. So everything we hear, is analog whether it's sourced from analog or digital encoding. Second, digital is superior in the time domain. There are no speed variations, wow & flutter, etc, etc. with "digital", as there is with pure analog formats.
"Objectively", digital is superior. As noted a thousand times, "subjectively", another story entirely. Now it's simply preference. No "best", "better", etc, etc....except the the beholder. I've heard analog sound "better" than digital...and vice versa. Our preferences are just that.

cheers

AJ

Comments (all IMO):

First Bold: Of course all we hear is analog. I am not at all sure why you are mentioning this. I thought the discussion was about a storage format for the replay of music. I am simply describing the implication of converting these formats to analog for listening.

Second Bold: In digital, once the notes are reconstructed they are indeed played in a very precise time domain, I agree completely; but this is not relevant and not what I am talking about. It is in the reconstruction process from bits to notes , particularly in PCM, where I believe digital is less natural because of imperfect time domain reconstruction.

As such, TT speed variation is a completely different concept from the femto second time domain requirements for digital note reconstruction, so again, you are missing my point.

In the time domain, if all digital is superior to analog are you arguing the clocks in digital don't matter? Surely you acknowledge the better the clocks the more analog the sound from digital will be???

Third Bold: This statement is too broad. Digital is objectively superior to analog only in the measurements to which you ascribe value which also happen to be the ones easily measured (distortion, dynamic range, noise floor etc, etc. ). If you could measure the imperfection of note reconstruction down to the femto second you would see that the best digital can ever hope to be is equal to analog in the time domain and until the perfect clock is developed that will never be the case.

This failure is what creates the perturbations that people experience when listening to digital that do not exist in analog. This is often manifest in less of an ability to relax. The development of high 5 figure clocks in SOTA dacs is all about the pursuit of optimum time domain to mitigate this issue.

Some time listen to a single manufacturers line of dacs from the slowest clock to the fastest and note what changes. IMO that change is a smoothness and naturalness that gets closer and closer to analog but not quite their. It is fun. I did it with MSB stuff.

I will agree that maybe you are listening to a dac that does time domain better than MSB and when you include your objective measurements showing digital's superiority in noise floor, dynamic range, distortion etc. you may prefer digital. But to make a blanket statement that digital is "objectively superior to analog" IMO just means you don't know what to measure.
 
but this is not relevant and not what I am talking about. It is in the reconstruction process from bits to notes , particularly in PCM, where I believe digital is less natural because of imperfect time domain reconstruction.
Where does this "imperfect time domain reconstruction" show up in the analog waveform output...again, the only relevant one, seeing we both agree one cannot hear digital?

If you could measure the imperfection of not reconstruction down to the femto second you would see that the best digital can ever hope to be is equal to analog in the time domain and until the perfect clock is developed that will never be the case.
I have no idea what that means. Audiophiles can hear femtosecond errors in the analog output of digital devices??
Yet not hear the vastly greater magnitude timing errors, wow & flutter etc of "pure" analog??

This failure is what creates the perturbations that people experience when listening to digital that do not exist in analog.
I am unaware of any such study. Link? Or do you mean pure anecdote?

But to make a blanket statement that digital is "objectively superior to analog" IMO just means you don't know what to measure.
Perhaps you could shed some light on what does need to be measured in the analog waveform output of "digital" devices that is not being measured?

cheers,

AJ
 
The practicalities are that CD requires very careful "babying" to give of its best - if one doesn't want to go that route, then some of the latest, pretty expensive CD components have done the babying for the consumer - showing what's possible.

Vinyl is easy, CD is hard - if one wants the high quality experience. The good news is that all the musical information is sitting patiently on those CDs out there, waiting to be fully revealed ...
 
Where does this "imperfect time domain reconstruction" show up in the analog waveform output...again, the only relevant one, seeing we both agree one cannot hear digital?


I have no idea what that means. Audiophiles can hear femtosecond errors in the analog output of digital devices??
Yet not hear the vastly greater magnitude timing errors, wow & flutter etc of "pure" analog??


I am unaware of any such study. Link? Or do you mean pure anecdote?


Perhaps you could shed some light on what does need to be measured in the analog waveform output of "digital" devices that is not being measured?

cheers,

AJ
AJ,

You would need to step completely out of your paradigm to begin to have a productive dialogue with me on the topic. I can see that is not going to happen. I will try to reply to your comments and then move on. I stated from the get go these are my opinions; nothing more nothing less.

To answer your questions:

First Bold
Of course the things I am talking about would not show up on a traditional analog wave from; do you appreciate what a femto second would look like on such a plot???

Second Bold
I believe the mind is an extremely sensitive device that is impacted by the time domain in ways that are difficult to measure. To me, digital with a slow clock sounds less like analog than digital with a fast clock. That difference is what I am saying audiophiles can hear.

I didn't say they couldn't hear a TT's time fluctuations. I simply think they are different. One is a variation in an existing analog stream that is a million, million times greater than the one in digital conversion. The one in the analog stream IMO is simply not as perturbing to many listeners as the one in the digital conversion.

I believe the high correlation between digital sounding more like analog and improvements in clock speed (or the use of chipless DSD) demonstrates this point.

Third Bold
If a study has been done that proves my suppositions we wouldn't be having this discussion. What does IMO mean to you?

Bottom line, I believe peoples preference for analog relates to something more than just "subjectivity" that has not yet been measured. I also believe if and when it is measured it will relate some how to the time domain given my listening experience comparing very similar dacs with different clocks to analog.

But AJ, this is just a forum and I am just talkin so don't let your paradigm open up unnecessarily. That said, I would still like your view on why clocks matter so much.
 
A femtosecond is the SI unit of time equal to 10[SUP]−[/SUP][SUP]15[/SUP] or [SUP]1[/SUP]/[SUB]1,000,000,000,000,000[/SUB] of a second. That is one quadrillionth, or one millionth of one billionth, of a second.
 
Hi Paul,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. The magnitude of timing errors (and there are no "digital" vs "analog" seconds...just seconds:)) in analog encoding and playback are much larger than "digital" (which of course must be converted). By any objective measure.
There are many more differences, (distortions, interchannel crosstalk, etc) some quite audible, in typical playback that leads to subjective preference, one way or another. Subjective preferences need no "objective" support, IMO.

cheers,

AJ
 
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