What's with the trend in amp design?

[joeinid]

Hmmm, I haven’t heard the XS amps. Maybe I better not

Maybe if they were priced closer to the .8 and weren’t so hot

Pass has already done this with the XS series. And they are.

It would be interesting to find out which speakers and cables were used for voicing these overly bright sounding amps. Nowadays it seems there's a bigger difference than ever between those that are revealing and those that are "rounded".

 

[mep]

I don’t want to pick out any particular amps, because there’s likely people here who own them. But Joe and I have talked extensively about particular amps in private. We are in agreement.

We have seen people buy amps and flip them very fast. Uh hum...

I’ve just noticed a real trend for treble extension, increased sibilance and “bite” across SOME new SS amps and I’m trying understand why. What on earth would drive such voicing changes?


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Uh, aren't you talking about Joe? Joe is the grand pooh bah of flipping gear. Seriously, you aren't providing enough information to put things into context. You don't want to name names and we have no idea of what kind of systems these offensive amps are in and whether they are all digital based. And why would this trend be just amplifier related? If a company is making an amp that is intentionally bright, why wouldn't their preamps do the same thing?

Digital brought us the loudness wars that served to kill off any semblance of dynamic range in order to make every recording try and stand out by shouting louder than the last recording you just heard. Maybe now we are in a new phase called the brightness wars.

 

[CPP]

Uh, aren't you talking about Joe? Joe is the grand pooh bah of flipping gear. Seriously, you aren't providing enough information to put things into context. You don't want to name names and we have no idea of what kind of systems these offensive amps are in and whether they are all digital based. And why would this trend be just amplifier related? If a company is making an amp that is intentionally bright, why wouldn't their preamps do the same thing?

Digital brought us the loudness wars that served to kill off any semblance of dynamic range in order to make every recording try and stand out by shouting louder than the last recording you just heard. Maybe now we are in a new phase called the brightness wars.

Agree Mark. More data is needed. Based on what Mike noted, one could think that based on the gear he carries, he could be seeing a change in all of this products towards more of a "Bright. Sibilant, Aggressive" sound as Mike noted..

If a manufacturer changes their design scheme, one would think those improved methods of a new version would carry on down to their pre-amps, integrated amps and dacs if one made dacs not just amps.

 

[jdandy]

When I replaced my McIntosh MC501 mono block amplifiers with a pair of McIntosh MC601's I noticed a more prominent level of midrange energy that moved the presentation forward in the soundstage, plus a new quickness to dynamic peaks that made the amplifiers seem quicker. These adjustments were not so dramatic as to be objectionable but it definitely presented a shift in the McIntosh house sound. By comparison the MC601's made the MC501's sound slightly darker. This new house sound was also introduced in the McIntosh MC452 stereo power amplifier, and the MC2301 tube mono block power amplifiers. Although I have not auditioned the newest McIntosh MC1.25KW mono block power amplifiers, I imagine this same voicing is present in that amplifier when compared to the older MC1.2KW amplifier.

It makes sense for a manufacturer to eventually make some sonic adjustments to their house sound when new products are introduced in an effort to create the impression of a fresh direction, something that would encourage owners of similar components to abandon older amplifiers for the newest amplifiers. It is a fine line for amplifier designers to tread when altering a revered house sound that is appreciated by faithful followers. In the case of McIntosh's newest amplifiers, the slight sonic shift was in the right direction without loosing the rich timbrel accuracy that is the common thread woven through decades of their products. An important factor in my mind is that a manufacture does not bring about a steady stream of new products, one right after the other, with each one touting a voicing adjustment. Eventually these audio components drift into an area where consumers are no longer confident amplifiers they purchase today will not be perceived as obsolete in short order.

I have no idea whether audio manufacturers intents are to exaggerate any part of the audio frequency range, but I do know that ultra analytical presentations often emphasize a more starkly chiseled upper midrange. When the source material is well mixed and mastered this can be fabulous, but it can quickly turn south for a listener's ears when less than stellar recordings are being reproduced. It is a narrow path we follow when building a high-end system, and as always our individual perception of what sounds good determines the products we embrace.

 

[Al M.]

Maybe the amps are doing their job, and exposing something downstream.

While I agree with others that there are amps that are on the bright side, this is a good point. I think that was also lost in some of the endless analog vs. digital discussions of yesteryear. While digital indeed can sound artificially bright, I suspect in many cases it simply exposed flaws in the system/room (room reflections!) that were not exposed by the more 'forgiving' vinyl.

 

[Mike]

I'm not referring to the room, the source or anything else but the amps. Voicing, I feel, with some manufacturers is becoming too much on the lean/bright side. I feel they are driving this change for fear of being called "rolled off" by a reviewer.

I'm not going to name names. If someone is curious, you can PM me or Joe. But we both feel there is a fundamental shift with SOME manufacturers towards a more "forward" presentation and we are not fans, others may love it. My friend Jerry says "give me bite! lots of bite!" Not me. Not Joe.

 

[joeinid]

Dan,

I would love to get your honest opinion of the new MC1.25 amps. Hopefully someday you will be able the get a good audition of them in a familiar system. I have no problem with progress, advancement and improvements. Those amps in particular, not having heard the MC611, have lost some of what I feel endears music lovers to the brand.

 

[Al M.]

I'm not referring to the room, the source or anything else but the amps.

I understood that, but in a system it is all about context. A system/room that has some inherent flaws towards the higher frequencies may benefit from an amp that 'tones down' things a bit, while a more linear amp may expose the flaws ruthlessly. That amp may then be perceived to be on the 'bright' side, when really, it is not. This does not take away the fact that there truly are too bright sounding amps.

Of course, compensating one coloration with another only leads to loss of resolution down the road. Better to have everything behave more neutrally throughout the chain for maximal retrieval of musical information.

 

[mep]

Dan,

I would love to get your honest opinion of the new MC1.25 amps. Hopefully someday you will be able the get a good audition of them in a familiar system. I have no problem with progress, advancement and improvements. Those amps in particular, not having heard the MC611, have lost some of what I feel endears music lovers to the brand.

I think we can throw one brand's name into the ring.

 

[joeinid]

Took you long enough I think several were mentioned already.

I’ll add another and you will certainly disagree but I couldn’t stand the ARC Ref 6. I will say the ARC GSPre is wonderful and I would take that in a heartbeat over the Ref 6.

I think we can throw one brand's name into the ring.

 

[Mike]

I understood that, but in a system it is all about context. A system/room that has some inherent flaws towards the higher frequencies may benefit from an amp that 'tones down' things a bit, while a more linear amp may expose the flaws ruthlessly. That amp may then be perceived to be on the 'bright' side, when really, it is not. This does not take away the fact that there truly are too bright sounding amps.

Of course, compensating one coloration with another only leads to loss of resolution down the road. Better to have everything behave more neutrally throughout the chain for maximal retrieval of musical information.

In a perfectly treated room, you put v1 of AMP X into the system and it sounds superb. You remove it, put in v2 of AMP X and you get bright, thin, etc.

That to me, is the wrong direction for voicing.

I think MEP is right, we are in some sort of weird brightness war making them even more unforgiving with bad recordings and even worse when put into systems with bad rooms, bad power and more.

 

[KeithR]

Wonder if its bright amps, or just the continuation of bright speakers with unobtanium metal tweeters and such.

 

[Mike]

Wonder if its bright amps, or just the continuation of bright speakers with unobtanium metal tweeters and such.

Definitely bright amps. Again, it's about voicing changes and going from V1 to V2 and holy cow! BITE. THIN. Why? Who the hell is wanting that?

Jerry I guess....

 

[KeithR]

Joe- were the Ayre Twenty series amps bright to your ears? how do they compare with your current Dags in the treble.

 

[jdandy]

Dan,

I would love to get your honest opinion of the new MC1.25 amps. Hopefully someday you will be able the get a good audition of them in a familiar system. I have no problem with progress, advancement and improvements. Those amps in particular, not having heard the MC611, have lost some of what I feel endears music lovers to the brand.

Joe.......I remember reading a previous comment by you where you expressed a less than enthusiastic response to the sound of the newest McIntosh MC1.25KW amplifiers. I was surprised to see that comment and thought perhaps the amplifiers did not have enough hours on them to settle into a permanent voice. Then again it could be that design changes in the amplifier circuits may have tilted the sound in a direction that simply did not please you. If and when I have the opportunity to audition the newest 1.25KW amplifiers, you can be certain I will post my impressions.

 

[mep]

Took you long enough I think several were mentioned already.

I’ll add another and you will certainly disagree but I couldn’t stand the ARC Ref 6. I will say the ARC GSPre is wonderful and I would take that in a heartbeat over the Ref 6.

You are the only person that I have ever heard describe the ARC Ref 6 as being bright. What else was in your system when you had the Ref 6?

 

[joeinid]

Keith,

The Ayre MXR20 (and KXR20 - still wish I had that one), have so much in common with the D’Agostino amps. The Ayre amps might be the tiniest bit smoother on top, but the D’Agostino amps have a little thicker tone and a little more meat on the bone. I could live with either, but ultimately I prefer my D’Agostino amps. NONE of the Ayre gear was ever bright, harsh or aggressive. Ayre is simply wonderful. They were the most perfect in that department. All this is in the context of solid state. CJ is my perfect tube solution. And it’s mostly true that Ayre is the best of tubes and solid state like Charlie used to say. Thicken up the Ayre and it’s a world beater, but they don’t like difficult speaker loads. The D’Agostinos handle difficult speakers easily.

Joe- were the Ayre Twenty series amps bright to your ears? how do they compare with your current Dags in the treble.

 

[mep]

Definitely bright amps. Again, it's about voicing changes and going from V1 to V2 and holy cow! BITE. THIN. Why? Who the hell is wanting that?

Jerry I guess....

Joe said the Ref 6 preamp is bright and he couldn't stand it.

 

[mep]

I'm not referring to the room, the source or anything else but the amps. Voicing, I feel, with some manufacturers is becoming too much on the lean/bright side. I feel they are driving this change for fear of being called "rolled off" by a reviewer.

I'm not going to name names. If someone is curious, you can PM me or Joe. But we both feel there is a fundamental shift with SOME manufacturers towards a more "forward" presentation and we are not fans, others may love it. My friend Jerry says "give me bite! lots of bite!" Not me. Not Joe.

Unless you have some inside information from a company that told you they are voicing their amps around an old, half deaf reviewer so he would like them, I'm not buying the reviewer theory. What company in their right mind would make everyone suffer with a bright product only to make a reviewer happy? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[joeinid]

I may have been the first to voice that opinion, but I can name 4 or 5 friends here (but I won’t) who’ve come around and agreed that the treble on the Ref 6 is a little aggressive. Especially compared to the Ref 10 and GSPre to name two.

I don’t remember the full system context but we’ve heard it and it’s not my cup of tea. This is my opinion, and of several friends that I know. I’m not claiming that I have the best hearing, but if something is aggressive or forward, it drives me nuts. My TAD CR-1 drove me nuts, I’m sorry to say and the Musical Fidelity Nuvista 800 was another piece that I could not live with either.

You are the only person that I have ever heard describe the ARC Ref 6 as being bright. What else was in your system when you had the Ref 6?