What needs to happen for you to suspend disbelief

Adrian Low

Adrian Low

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I'm having a wonderful discussion in the Spatial speakers subforum with Lallygagger about our experiences; what has to happen for you to suspend disbelief and think your system has transported you to the venue, or the performers into your room? Has that ever happened to you?

I thought this might be an interesting thread to consider.
 
Yes, when I used Pass XA amps with my Strads. The synergy is phenomenal, it's like a big hand reached out of the soundstage and pulled me in. I'm hoping my XS amps will be all that and more.

I also have a Burton Cummings live concert CD. I was at the recording of that concert. When I put it on, I still envision myself where I sat during the concert.
 
I don't think in that level of description personally. All I want is good staging and details in the music then everything else falls into place. I figure to try to get the sound to be like your there in the venue or the performers are in your room on every album is a fool's errand when you consider that every album is recorded differently with different mic placements and everything for the most part.
For me, if it sounds good with the elements I seek, then it is. That said, I also do not expect that with every album. If I did, I would not listen to music at all because I would be consistently disappointed all too often. Then again, I'm not an audiophile, but I am a musician (non-working these days) and took some sound engineering courses and even ran live sound on a number of occasions back in the day. I just like great sound and strive for it with what I have to work with.

As for disbelief, I'm not sure what you are asking. Disbelief in certain gear or disbelief in your own system or what?
 
MusicDirector said:
I don't think in that level of description personally. All I want is good staging and details in the music then everything else falls into place. I figure to try to get the sound to be like your there in the venue or the performers are in your room on every album is a fool's errand when you consider that every album is recorded differently with different mic placements and everything for the most part.
For me, if it sounds good with the elements I seek, then it is. That said, I also do not expect that with every album. If I did, I would not listen to music at all because I would be consistently disappointed all too often. Then again, I'm not an audiophile, but I am a musician (non-working these days) and took some sound engineering courses and even ran live sound on a number of occasions back in the day. I just like great sound and strive for it with what I have to work with.


As for disbelief, I'm not sure what you are asking. Disbelief in certain gear or disbelief in your own system or what?
Click to expand...

I meant suspension of disbelief; that you cognitively know that the system is reproducing the music, yet the result is so compellingly real that you suspend your disbelief and revel in the experience as if it were live, real somehow.

The recording obviously needs to be very good in order for this to happen. Please note that I don't mean that you cannot enjoy the music of a bad recording. What I mean is have you ever had an experience where you were simply stunned, absolutely incredulous that your system (or someone else') came so close that you could swear it was real? And if so, what do you think were the factors, and perhaps even more importantly, was it repeated consistently?
 
In my teen years I remember having dreams like that, but they never had anything to do with a stereo. Of course, waking up brought me back to the reality that I wasn't going to ever speak to THAT girl, let alone fulfill my dream fantasy.

I think the only times that I've ever experienced that suspension of belief in front of a system I was also indulging in some mind altering substance as well (alcohol for me, but it could be different for you). However good it was though, I don't think I ever mistook recorded music for live, meaning my suspension of belief in the reproduction of music was about as real as my performance in my teen fantasies. :yahoo1:
 
Never had that experience of my home system equaling a well done live performance where I felt the musicians were right in my room at arms length. The closest I ever got to that feeling was listening to a pair of Maggie 20.1 fed by Lamm M1.2 mono's.
 
I'll detail a few times where the sound was transcendent for me.

Back when I was in my second year of University, I had a pair of Rogers LS3/5a. Source was a VPI HW19/ET2/Grado MCX, Audible Illusions IIB preamp, Counterpoint SA12 amp. The speakers were placed at the opening to the dining room, no side walls for about 4 feet, and about 7 ft from the back wall. The speakers completely disappeared, and on some vocal recordings, it transported me to the recording venue at low to mid volumes. Not quite totally believable, but amazingly involving nonetheless.

My first encounter with the Martin Logan CLS 1. I had been searching for the fabled Infinity RS-1B that many senior writers for TAS had said were among the finest speakers. Couldn't find any local dealer who had a pair. Heard the RS-2B but didn't hear any magic (might have been any number of reasons). Discovered High End Audio by accident. Arthur, the owner, played the CLS for me. The track was Weavers at Carnegie Hall. The midrange, voices was eerie. Again, I was transported to the original event. Sure there were weaknesses, but when it was right, it was stunning. Other recordings didn't have the same magic due to the weaknesses, but on that album... Many years later, I have the CLS 2Z on custom Sound Anchor stands, and when I play them with Martin Logan Depth subs, clients tell me they are just as amazed as I was/am. With this set up, many more great recordings can cast the same magic.

I had the good fortune of helping David Wilson set up a pair of Wamms. When it was done, the result was again, magical. Even recordings that were not "great" created a life-like presence that I've not heard from many cost-no-object systems.

For me, I believe the requirements are, in no particular order:
1. The system has to disappear. Both soundstage and image must be fully detached from the speakers. Some speakers do a great job of throwing a stage between the speakers, but not when the stage gets close to the speakers.

2. Depth, presence and Height. Some systems "produce" great depth but at the expense of a laid back front stage. These systems always produce the sound behind the speakers regardless of how the recording was mic'ed. I find that this detracts from my ability to suspend disbelief. When I play Johnny Cash singing "The Beast in Me", he should sound like he is in the room. Conversely, Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Sessions" should transport me to the Church of the Holy Trinity. Height is an interesting one for me. Wilson speakers from the MAXX up create a tall image, and that seems to really help. Speakers that may be arguably "more coherent, faster, etc" but are 40-50" tall don't seem to create that illusion for me as easily.

3. Accurate fundamentals and harmonics. Too lean and the illusion is gone. Similarly, too rich and I am bothered by the tonality.

4. Dynamics - played within the capabilities of the system/room. Too loud or too soft, and the illusion is gone. And volume must also be a function of the instrument. For example, playing back a cello at too high a volume level and the illusion is gone. I leaned this from Arnie Nudell and Mark Levinson years ago. Both were careful to play at "correct" volumes.

5. PRaT.

6. Illusion of air - from the lowest frequencies to the highest, it seems to me that when the system can move air, the system disappears and I am in the venue. Note that this does not necessarily have to do with bass. But if the system doesn't go low, properly, it's hard to create the illusion.

There's probably more but I'll stop here for now.

Again, these are MY experiences, my opinions only. Just sharing to see if anyone else has ideas.
 
Adrian Low said:
I'll detail a few times where the sound was transcendent for me.

Back when I was in my second year of University, I had a pair of Rogers LS3/5a. Source was a VPI HW19/ET2/Grado MCX, Audible Illusions IIB preamp, Counterpoint SA12 amp. The speakers were placed at the opening to the dining room, no side walls for about 4 feet, and about 7 ft from the back wall. The speakers completely disappeared, and on some vocal recordings, it transported me to the recording venue at low to mid volumes. Not quite totally believable, but amazingly involving nonetheless.

My first encounter with the Martin Logan CLS 1. I had been searching for the fabled Infinity RS-1B that many senior writers for TAS had said were among the finest speakers. Couldn't find any local dealer who had a pair. Heard the RS-2B but didn't hear any magic (might have been any number of reasons). Discovered High End Audio by accident. Arthur, the owner, played the CLS for me. The track was Weavers at Carnegie Hall. The midrange, voices was eerie. Again, I was transported to the original event. Sure there were weaknesses, but when it was right, it was stunning. Other recordings didn't have the same magic due to the weaknesses, but on that album... Many years later, I have the CLS 2Z on custom Sound Anchor stands, and when I play them with Martin Logan Depth subs, clients tell me they are just as amazed as I was/am. With this set up, many more great recordings can cast the same magic.

I had the good fortune of helping David Wilson set up a pair of Wamms. When it was done, the result was again, magical. Even recordings that were not "great" created a life-like presence that I've not heard from many cost-no-object systems.

For me, I believe the requirements are, in no particular order:
1. The system has to disappear. Both soundstage and image must be fully detached from the speakers. Some speakers do a great job of throwing a stage between the speakers, but not when the stage gets close to the speakers.

2. Depth, presence and Height. Some systems "produce" great depth but at the expense of a laid back front stage. These systems always produce the sound behind the speakers regardless of how the recording was mic'ed. I find that this detracts from my ability to suspend disbelief. When I play Johnny Cash singing "The Beast in Me", he should sound like he is in the room. Conversely, Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Sessions" should transport me to the Church of the Holy Trinity. Height is an interesting one for me. Wilson speakers from the MAXX up create a tall image, and that seems to really help. Speakers that may be arguably "more coherent, faster, etc" but are 40-50" tall don't seem to create that illusion for me as easily.

3. Accurate fundamentals and harmonics. Too lean and the illusion is gone. Similarly, too rich and I am bothered by the tonality.

4. Dynamics - played within the capabilities of the system/room. Too loud or too soft, and the illusion is gone. And volume must also be a function of the instrument. For example, playing back a cello at too high a volume level and the illusion is gone. I leaned this from Arnie Nudell and Mark Levinson years ago. Both were careful to play at "correct" volumes.

5. PRaT.

6. Illusion of air - from the lowest frequencies to the highest, it seems to me that when the system can move air, the system disappears and I am in the venue. Note that this does not necessarily have to do with bass. But if the system doesn't go low, properly, it's hard to create the illusion.

There's probably more but I'll stop here for now.

Again, these are MY experiences, my opinions only. Just sharing to see if anyone else has ideas.
Click to expand...

My system does that, but it still doesn't sound like it's live, I don't think any system can fool me into believing that.
 
I am fortunate that I am able to attend about 90 live concerts a year, almost of them classical, unamplified. They are in various venues, mainly in the SF Bay Area and London. Although my system does not duplicate these performances, I can at times get some suspension of disbelief.

The media which has the best chance of reproducing this for me is 15ips 2 track tape, particularly direct copies of master tapes or carefully done one generation down. Although the vast majority of listening is to classical music, my favorite "sod" album is Tape Project's "Little Hatch" which is a blues recording done by Chad Kassam. There are also several other Tape Project tapes, like the Arnold Overtures and the Liszt Recital by Nojima which can have that effect on me. Several of the UltraAnalogue tapes of Ed Pong of classical chamber music give me that sense, too. Another great tape is Jonathan Horwich's Ravi Shankar live concert (dub of the master tape) that Jonathan recorded live in Luxembourg.

For many years, my reference vinyl album has been the English, Scottish and Cornish Dances of Malcolm Arnold, a Lyrita recording and one of the top dozen albums of Harry Pearson's TAS SuperDisc list. I was very fortunate last year to get to know and extensively interview Decca engineer John Dunkerley who was the chief engineer for the recording back in the late '70's (Lyrita stereos were all recorded by Decca). As part of my Decca book John shared with me his engineering studio sheets for the recording which showed the placement of the orchestra and the location of all the mics including the famous Decca Tree. There is a realism to the recording, which comes from the simple miking which captures the hall ambience. The Decca pressing (done at New Malden) is also exemplary, with more of a sense of space than the later, still very fine, Nimbus pressing.

Larry
 
Adrian Low said:
I meant suspension of disbelief; that you cognitively know that the system is reproducing the music, yet the result is so compellingly real that you suspend your disbelief and revel in the experience as if it were live, real somehow.

The recording obviously needs to be very good in order for this to happen. Please note that I don't mean that you cannot enjoy the music of a bad recording. What I mean is have you ever had an experience where you were simply stunned, absolutely incredulous that your system (or someone else') came so close that you could swear it was real? And if so, what do you think were the factors, and perhaps even more importantly, was it repeated consistently?
Click to expand...

Ah, thank you. I think I got an understanding now.
I have had that experience, yes. In fact, a few times both with my own system and someone else's. Then again, my approach is different being a non-audiophile, but a music lover. I tend to not expect anything. In other words, I have no preconceived ideas when I listen to a recording through any system until it happens.
One example was with a recording of The Smithereens on CD. There is this one song (I can't recall the title now), that one would most likely hear at a coffee house or some intimate setting. I was testing out some Golden Ear Triton speakers and was playing the CD on a Rotel CDP through a Classe amp. I did not know what to expect, but I was focused on the speakers. That song came on and instantly it seemed like they were right in front of me and you could almost see where each person was standing and everything as if you were right there in that coffee house. It was so good and took me by surprise that I had to play it twice.
 
"Discovered High End Audio by accident. Arthur, the owner, played the CLS for me. The track was Weavers at Carnegie Hall. The midrange, voices was eerie. Again, I was transported to the original event. Sure there were weaknesses, but when it was right, it was stunning."

Oh boy, how I remember experiencing the original CLS's in that basement store on Queen Street East. I think Arthur was driving them with Quicksilver 60w mono's. I left amazed by what I heard and upset in how bad Arthur tried to make me feel for owning Maggies!
 
first; not all media suspends disbelief equally. and certain source gear paints a distracting sameness (even if it's a beautiful sameness) over the music. the energy of the music needs to released.

the recording itself must be outstanding. there are many of these to choose from. and how many will pull off 'disbelief' depends on the limitations of the whole system.

the system must have lots of headroom in ease, dynamics, and frequency extremes. this is really the hard part. how many speaker systems truly have ultimate headroom? the amps and speakers must be synergistic and well matched to the room. the lower mid-range/upper bass must be very coherent and seamless.

sometimes sins of omission do not get in the way, but sins of commission do take away from those 'disbelief' moments. a system with limitations in headroom can still pull off magic if it avoids the pitfalls of distortion.

the room and power grid need to allow for complete note decay and energy retention. the system needs a very low noise floor. when the dynamic energy and ease starts to resemble real life then the magic happens.

put that all together and there you go. dim the lights and listen. the music then teases you with it's touching reality here and there. you travel into your own separate musical place.

and there are degrees of 'disbelief'. one can go deeper and deeper into it. that is what this hobby can be about.

there is a jazz club/Italian restaurant at the bottom of the hill from my home. there is live jazz every night. I can have dinner, listen to a bit of live music, and then in 5 minutes be back in my room and listening.....which I do about once a month. the big rig does flirt with what the live music does, and better it in a few ways, but not quite get there in others.

when I play 'Georgia on my Mind' from the Classic 45rpm of 'Ben Webster Live at the Renaissance' at warp 9, and from the first note the room pressurizes and the jazz club appears before me in all it's glory.....I'm there. then Ben comes in and disbelief is suspended.
 
I've had this experience with Ultraanalog tapes. They are solo or small group classical recorded direct to tape and they sound wonderful. I remember staring at my speakers while listening to one tape and they seemed to me to be dead silent. All the while the music was everywhere, the soundstage was the whole room.
 
For me, Dynamics, Presence, & Tone have to be present in abundance.

Without them, it cannot happen, no matter how much detail, how big the soundstage, how black the blacks, or how striking the audiophile sound effects may be.

Best,

Jim
 
I don't go to enough Acoustic Only shows to have a valid response on this. I certainly would never want my system to sound like 99.9% of the Electric shows I have been to.

That said, on quiet snowy evenings with the lights out and abuzz on, I sometimes feel I am there, or they are here.
 
Jim Smith said:
For me, Dynamics, Presence, & Tone have to be present in abundance.

Without them, it cannot happen, no matter how much detail, how big the soundstage, how black the blacks, or how striking the audiophile sound effects may be.

Best,

Jim
Click to expand...

Hi Jim, nice to see you posting here. I will be moving to Greensboro next summer, I hope we can meet.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
first; not all media suspends disbelief equally. and certain source gear paints a distracting sameness (even if it's a beautiful sameness) over the music. the energy of the music needs to released.

the recording itself must be outstanding. there are many of these to choose from. and how many will pull off 'disbelief' depends on the limitations of the whole system.

the system must have lots of headroom in ease, dynamics, and frequency extremes. this is really the hard part. how many speaker systems truly have ultimate headroom? the amps and speakers must be synergistic and well matched to the room. the lower mid-range/upper bass must be very coherent and seamless.

sometimes sins of omission do not get in the way, but sins of commission do take away from those 'disbelief' moments. a system with limitations in headroom can still pull off magic if it avoids the pitfalls of distortion.

the room and power grid need to allow for complete note decay and energy retention. the system needs a very low noise floor. when the dynamic energy and ease starts to resemble real life then the magic happens.

put that all together and there you go. dim the lights and listen. the music then teases you with it's touching reality here and there. you travel into your own separate musical place.

and there are degrees of 'disbelief'. one can go deeper and deeper into it. that is what this hobby can be about.

there is a jazz club/Italian restaurant at the bottom of the hill from my home. there is live jazz every night. I can have dinner, listen to a bit of live music, and then in 5 minutes be back in my room and listening.....which I do about once a month. the big rig does flirt with what the live music does, and better it in a few ways, but not quite get there in others.

when I play 'Georgia on my Mind' from the Classic 45rpm of 'Ben Webster Live at the Renaissance' at warp 9, and from the first note the room pressurizes and the jazz club appears before me in all it's glory.....I'm there. then Ben comes in and disbelief is suspended.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, that's what I was looking for, hoping that those of us lucky enough to have been transported to nirvana can share thoughts about how to replicate it. I know some of us are happy as long as it "plays the tune", but honestly for me that's not enough, especially at the levels I've invested in, and ESPECIALLY after I've heard what's possible. The frustrating thing is trying to consistently recreate the illusion. I know that one of the factors is the mood I'm in; but that doesn't explain the times when I'm in a neutral mood and I still get swept away, and the other times when I'm in a great mood and nothing happens. Ah well, at least I've experienced it a "few" times...kinda reminds me of Star Trek Generations, where Malcolm MacDowell keeps trying to enter the energy ribbon so that he can re-experience bliss
 
Mark Jones said:
"Discovered High End Audio by accident. Arthur, the owner, played the CLS for me. The track was Weavers at Carnegie Hall. The midrange, voices was eerie. Again, I was transported to the original event. Sure there were weaknesses, but when it was right, it was stunning."

Oh boy, how I remember experiencing the original CLS's in that basement store on Queen Street East. I think Arthur was driving them with Quicksilver 60w mono's. I left amazed by what I heard and upset in how bad Arthur tried to make me feel for owning Maggies!
Click to expand...

Haha, Arthur is a character. I have nothing but admiration for how he ran his store, his way, his beliefs. He was a pioneer in so many ways, and all this before the age of internet. He knew exactly what he liked, could demonstrate that, and if you didn't agree, so what? Taught me a lot

And don't feel bad about the Maggies...they do many things better. It's just that the CLS had this amazing transparency that could draw you in with the right music. :)
 
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