What’s the big deal with class ‘D’ anyhow ?

a.wayne said:
Those measurements are not independently verified and Hypex wont answer nor indulge when questioned.. :)


there's alot to explain in those graphs i posted , its not just the amount but the shape, odd or even order content and percentage of change , which gives each their sonic signature, a signature you or I or anyone for that matter either loves or hate , as we all listen and accept these signatures differently...

I will later put up a couple more of each to explain my position a bit more clearly and no its not necessary to be super smart and deaf to like class-D nor old fashioned and stupid to like class a/ab , each has their own virtues and warts ....

Enjoy the music , we are all here for that ....


Regards
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Hahaha! I am sure that many of Hypex's OEM customer's would not be very happy if they posted bogus measurements. I know of at least two Hypex amp manufacturers who own AP units can easily verify themselves. I trust Hypex, they are not BSers, and if you have ever had any interaction Bruno Putzeys you would experience this for yourself.
You asked me to post measurements and I did, then your only defense is to suggest they are bogus, hahaha.

The measurements i posted show distortion performance at least as good, if not better than, the absolute best measuring class A, A/B amps in the world, even at high frequencies where you suggest their is a problem. Show me a class A or A/B amplifier with less then .01% distortion across the entire bandwidth while delivering 500 watts into 4 ohms...

Meanwhile, you do not even specify what your measurements are of? Or the source of them?

BTW, the NC-400 DIY modules are even better, with .002% distortion across the entire bandwidth while delivering 100 watts into 4 ohms.

When you get distortion levels this low, it matters not whether the distortion products are odd or even, or low order or high order, the distortion products are inaudible entirely. That is the whole point of Hypex's work, to reduce distortion to such low levels that it is inaudible.

As to your comments about square wave response at 10 kHz you are correct. The waveform is a little slow, but there are many, many, many highly beloved tube amplifiers (and pure class A amps) with even worse 10 K square wave response.

Of course you are free to prefer what you like, I have no problem with that. But suggesting that the latest generation class D amplifiers have technical issues which can be shown in measurements is factually false as I have demonstrated, and it is misleading to others.
 
barrows said:
Hahaha! I am sure that many of Hypex's OEM customer's would not be very happy if they posted bogus measurements. I know of at least two Hypex amp manufacturers who own AP units can easily verify themselves. I trust Hypex, they are not BSers, and if you have ever had any interaction Bruno Putzeys you would experience this for yourself.
You asked me to post measurements and I did, then your only defense is to suggest they are bogus, hahaha.

.
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I said not independently verifiable ..... Bogus is you projecting ... :)

barrows said:
BTW, the NC-400 DIY modules are even better, with .002% distortion across the entire bandwidth while delivering 100 watts into 4 ohms.

When you get distortion levels this low, it matters not whether the distortion products are odd or even, or low order or high order, the distortion products are inaudible entirely. That is the whole point of Hypex's work, to reduce distortion to such low levels that it is inaudible.

As to your comments about square wave response at 10 kHz you are correct. The waveform is a little slow, but there are many, many, many highly beloved tube amplifiers (and pure class A amps) with even worse 10 K square wave response.

Of course you are free to prefer what you like, I have no problem with that. But suggesting that the latest generation class D amplifiers have technical issues which can be shown in measurements is factually false as I have demonstrated, and it is misleading to others.
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We did do a comparison of these modules in various config and most who owned them went with the class-D crowns thought of them being better , i found at the time , both amps woefully lacking in timbre, making all classical piano recordings sound like keyboards and lacking in dimension. They were the only ones where both kids and wife asked what did i change, my daughter said the system doesn't sound alive anymore , so you tell me..


I ended up purchasing 5 of the big crowns and kept 3 for the HT system , my other previous class-D jaunts included ,

1. Rotels
2. Crown
3. Devialet
4. Bel Canto

I liked all of them on Dixie jazz and swing , hated them on everything else, if you listen to classical you could not live with any, exception being Devialet which are the best of the genre to me , but i have not heard the big $$$ Mola Mola stuff so cannot say.

So yes , I have tasted , they are not for me and many others , yet they work for many others too, so go figure, not everyone can be young and smart at the same time ...

:)

Regards ...


BTW Which class-A SS amps with bad Squarewaves, please provide, expose these basturds , for the well being of the sharky community...
 
a.wayne said:
I said not independently verifiable ..... Bogus is you projecting ... :)
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My exact words were: "then your only defense is to SUGGEST they are bogus", that is exactly what you did. I have no reason to doubt Hypex's published specifications, just as I would not doubt Pass Labs published specifications. Mr. Putzeys is a straight shooter, and always has been in any interaction I have had/seen with him.
 
From your list it seems quite likely that you have not listened to an Ncore amplifier, unless the bel canto was a very recent model. Ncore is the first class D amplifier to make it into my system and stay (replacing Pass Labs), although I do hear that the latest tech from iCEPower (only available in the 1200AS 1 & 2 modules) is as good, or perhaps better. I have not heard it myself.

BTW, just listened to Hilary Hahn's Bach Concertos here, last night was Rachmaninoff's Symphony no 2, in DSD from Channel Classics. Both sounded wonderful.
 
Well good for you , now can you provide us with any independent data to support your positions ...

No ...?



Not to worry the sharky crew still luv yah .........
smile.png
 
Never took it as anything at all about my decision, just relating my fairly recent journey :). It would be impossible to get the same wattage Class A amp in my budget. I did have some Class A/B that were fairly high powered, such as the SST...
 
barrows said:
From your list it seems quite likely that you have not listened to an Ncore amplifier, unless the bel canto was a very recent model. Ncore is the first class D amplifier to make it into my system and stay (replacing Pass Labs), although I do hear that the latest tech from iCEPower (only available in the 1200AS 1 & 2 modules) is as good, or perhaps better. I have not heard it myself.

BTW, just listened to Hilary Hahn's Bach Concertos here, last night was Rachmaninoff's Symphony no 2, in DSD from Channel Classics. Both sounded wonderful.
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Read again Sir , i said we compared the crowns to NC400, i did not own them ... I did own the others except the devialet i had access to it in my system...
 
Randy Myers said:
Never took it as anything at all about my decision, just relating my fairly recent journey :). It would be impossible to get the same wattage Class A amp in my budget. I did have some Class A/B that were fairly high powered, such as the SST...
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Technically speaker most SS amps are A/AB , some more so than others, Pure class-A can only be achieved at 8 ohms and is very rare ..


Regards ..
 
a.wayne said:
I did say this in my ramblings , we lock onto the sonic signature of what we like and or find negative about any topology genre ..
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Except when one doesn't realize one is listening to a certain topology...as I found with literally hundreds of audiophiles. Those "sonic" signatures turned out to be not so sonic. Belief can have a powerful affect on the mind.
It is certainly true that some of the old class D tech had sonic sigs, especially in the highs, as the HF output filtering affected both load dependent frequency and phase. I think that is where a lot of the expectation bias "sonics" arise.
The new Hypex (et al) are load invariant, extremely powerful and transparent to human ears ability to detect distortions of any metric. At least when audiophiles are unaware they are actually listening to them.
Now, with awareness, that is another matter entirely.
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a.wayne said:
Read again Sir , i said we compared the crowns to NC400, i did not own them ... I did own the others except the devialet i had access to it in my system...
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Oh good, sorry I missed that. I have direct experience with the NC-400 modules. I have seen a lot of what I would consider poor builds by DIYers of NC-400 modules, so they can be a moving target. When I built mine I compared directly to my Pass X 150.5. The NC was resolving more detail and was quieter overall, but the Pass was a bit warmer and rounder. The NC was a little bit thin sounding in comparison, but I did not want to give up the extra resolution it had. By changing the AC input wiring to the SMPS 600 in the NC amps, I got the body/fullness I was looking for, and kept the additional details. I went from the stock Hypex supplied 18 AWG cheapo tinned copper wire to 15.5 AWG Cardas litz, nearly doubling the gauge. At that point after about 6 months of comparisons of the NC vs. the Pass, the Pass left my system as I fully preferred the NC without and qualms. since then I made one further change which improved the NC amp performance, I changed the footers from Stillponts minis to Herbies Tall/Soft Tenderfoots, this eliminated the slightest amount of midrange hardness sometimes heard when a vocalist is really pushing it, and allowed for an even blacker background.
These amps are so transparent, that small details of implementation really seem to matter.
Since, i have also heard the Nord One Up (SI OPAs) and the Merrill Audio Veritas in my system-both outperformed the NC-400, and I am currently looking for my next upgrade path to a higher power class D amp.
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AJ Soundfield said:
Will do, get ready to be a Youtube star :P
Now, what class A will suffice?
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If you use a relatively pure class A, such as Pass Labs XA series I suspect the class A lovers will be able to pick it out for its low damping factor and distortion characteristics (lushness). A better comparison might be Constellation, as they are a bit more neutral/transparent.
 
barrows said:
If you use a relatively pure class A, such as Pass Labs XA series I suspect the class A lovers will be able to pick it out for its low damping factor and distortion characteristics (lushness). A better comparison might be Constellation, as they are a bit more neutral/transparent.
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LOL
 
barrows said:
If you use a relatively pure class A, such as Pass Labs XA series I suspect the class A lovers will be able to pick it out for its low damping factor and distortion characteristics (lushness). A better comparison might be Constellation, as they are a bit more neutral/transparent.
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Let me give this a try ,

If you use a relatively pure class D amp , such as Hypex I suspect the class D lovers will be able to pick it out for its over damped weak bass and high NFB distortion characteristics (dry sounding ).

A better comparison might be Devialet ....
 
a.wayne said:
Let me give this a try ,

If you use a relatively pure class D amp , such as Hypex I suspect the class D lovers will be able to pick it out for its over damped weak bass and high NFB distortion characteristics (dry sounding ).

A better comparison might be Devialet ....
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An amplifier cannot be overdamped, it's job is to follow the input signal accurately, not to be slow and emphasize low frequency signals. Unless you are looking for an amplifier to contribute a sound of its own to the signal. Personally I do not want my system to be editorialize the recording. That would not be what High Fidelity is.
 
Maybe I can clarify my point. If one is looking to distinguish between two amplifiers, does it not make sense to use two amplifiers which are both about neutral in terms of coloration?
I would characterize Pass XA series (and much more so aleph, etc) as a bit on the warm, forgiving, and slow side. I would consider Constellation about neutral, with clean transients, well controlled but ample bass response, and neutral balance in the high frequencies. On the sharp end of this scale I would put Solution, with super tight, and perhaps a little anemic bass, super fast and overly sharp transient attacks, and emphasized high frequencies. All of these amps are excellent, but need to matched to the appropriate speakers in order to achieve an acceptable sonic performance in room.
It makes sense to me to use the most neutral of these choices for a comparison of amplifier classes, not one which leans far toward one extreme or the other.
 
a.wayne said:
If you use a relatively pure class D amp , such as Hypex I suspect the class D lovers will be able to pick it out for its over damped weak bass and high NFB distortion characteristics (dry sounding ).
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Hey now, you're going to be the one picking, not the "class D lovers" :P
You're choice of class A amp (no tubes and/or pathological SS). Maybe your own Pass?
 
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