We Are Living in the Golden Age of Affordable High-End Audio

[gadawg]

Ah, but was your Lexus bought as an "all-in-one" or did you buy a Lexus body with a BMW engine and an Audi interior?

I can't see any reason why a good all-in-one shouldn't be as satisfactory (and in fact probably better) than the cobbled together mix-and-match alternative - car or audio!

The reason the all in one won’t likely be as satisfactory nor anywhere near as good as the cobbled together mix and match is because in order for this to be the case every speaker company would have to get as good at building amps, DACs, streamers as they are as building speakers in the first place. Not likely to happen. Nor will Boulder likely compete with Wilson or Magico anytime soon.

The only way I see this being a serious direction is if all companies agreed to a standard for size and shape of these components and built them so folks could still have their Wilson XVX with Boulder amps … just the form factor would be different than it is today. Then again that’s assuming that the Boulder performance could be built into a speaker cabinet in the first place which I highly doubt. Then there are the tube guys like me …

It was said earlier and I agree totally … that time as always … will tell!

George

 

[chops]

Ah, but was your Lexus bought as an "all-in-one" or did you buy a Lexus body with a BMW engine and an Audi interior?

I can't see any reason why a good all-in-one shouldn't be as satisfactory (and in fact probably better) than the cobbled together mix-and-match alternative - car or audio!

An "all-in-one" car... Really? That has to be one of, if not the worse kind of comparison. On a side note, my Lexus is a 2001 LS430, rumored to be the best Lexus that Lexus ever built, even to this day. And considering it hasn't spent a single day in the shop for some silly repairs in the last 22 years and 228,000+ miles, that's saying something.

Also, unless I missed it somewhere within this thread, it seems as though you are the only one that is raring and willing to ditch your system for an active loudspeaker setup.

 

[nicoff]

The reason the all in one won’t likely be as satisfactory nor anywhere near as good as the cobbled together mix and match is because in order for this to be the case every speaker company would have to get as good at building amps, DACs, streamers as they are as building speakers in the first place. Not likely to happen. Nor will Boulder likely compete with Wilson or Magico anytime soon.

There is no longer anything esoteric about building good amps, DACs, and streamers. These are now mature technologies. Speaker manufacturers can outsource those devices and add them into their speakers relatively cheap (while charging us much more for it).

The only way I see this being a serious direction is if all companies agreed to a standard for size and shape of these components and built them so folks could still have their Wilson XVX with Boulder amps … just the form factor would be different than it is today. Then again that’s assuming that the Boulder performance could be built into a speaker cabinet in the first place which I highly doubt. Then there are the tube guys like me …

I do not see it that way at all. Speaker manufacturers have no need to standardize anything since today they can purchase customized Amp/DAC/Streamers fairly cheaply. I foresee that the demand for stand alone Amps, DACs, and Streamers will decrease over the years. Corollary: Companies that manufacture Amp/DAC/Streamers but do not manufacture speakers WILL be negatively affected by this trend. Those companies (which includes Boulder) better have a Plan B.

 

[Hear Here]

The reason the all in one won’t likely be as satisfactory nor anywhere near as good as the cobbled together mix and match is because in order for this to be the case every speaker company would have to get as good at building amps, DACs, streamers as they are as building speakers in the first place. Not likely to happen.

George

Fortunately the market has developed in such a way that brands don't need to start from scratch if looking for streamer, DAC, amp or DSP to include in their fully active speakers.

The skill of the brand will be select the right module that best suits their system. A range of Class D amps is available for the industry to pick from and similarly DACs, streamers and DSP. They will probably get the basic module tweaked to suit their requirements and may well build under license - as NAD does with Purifi Eigentakt amp modules. This should end up with a better and much less costly system if proper comparisons are made.

The Dutch & Dutch is one of the first modern active speakers as opposed to traditional ones such as ATC. Avantgarde is following suit at a far higher level of offering but (when the forthcoming streamer module becomes available) their G3 range will offer the same features. Others are doing the same too. The age of modern all-in-one active speakers will develop quickly and leave the hugely costly brands building single-application electronics struggling to compete. AR has gone, though probably for other reasons, but I suspect the range of high cost amps, DACs etc will reduce as high end actives catch on, as surely they will.

 

[Hear Here]

And considering it hasn't spent a single day in the shop for some silly repairs in the last 22 years and 228,000+ miles, that's saying something.


Also, unless I missed it somewhere within this thread, it seems as though you are the only one that is raring and willing to ditch your system for an active loudspeaker setup.

You make a very good case for the complex product designed and built by a single company - Lexus in your example. Why do you think that the likes of Avantgarde won't offer the same quality, reliability, longevity, pride of ownership and everything you love about your vintage Lexus?

There are others here who agree that actives will become increasingly popular over the next several years - read the replies or look at the Likes.

There will still of course be dinosaurs who love to show off their beautiful work-of-art turntables, piles of single-use electronics and their associated snake-pit of cables and shelves sagging under the weight of a thousand LPs, but most will sooner or later see the light as they visit showrooms and shows to listen to modern active systems. :congrats:

 

[Hear Here]

Another poster proving my point. I'm sure those speakers are nice but what is in the signature. No one is disputing those all-in-a-speaker produtcts exist, but, whose using them?

I suppose time will tell if these companies sell enough units to make the product continue to be viable.

As with all audio, choosing the right unit that suits your listening preferences and your room is key. If Dutch & Dutch doesn't float your boat, then another active speaker system will.

You change speakers every 10 years or so, so careful selection is vital. The difference is, you make this selection once, whereas you have to make the right choice every time you change any part of a multi-box system and your choice depends, not only on the 2 factors already mentioned, but the new item has to be compatible with and work in perfect harmony with the rest of the system.

 

[Mr Peabody]

You active speaker guys need to get out to the shows more. Active is not, taking over.

This thread is going in circles. I'll end with this, it has been said you lead by example. Or, if you talk the talk, you need to walk the walk. My position will not change until I begin to see folks actually using these active speakers as a main system.

Here Here, you look at the "likes" but you should be paying attention to the gear in the sigs. That's what's used, that's where the dollars went.

 

[Hear Here]

You active speaker guys need to get out to the shows more. Active is not, taking over.

This thread is going in circles. I'll end with this, it has been said you lead by example. Or, if you talk the talk, you need to walk the walk. My position will not change until I begin to see folks actually using these active speakers as a main system.

Here Here, you look at the "likes" but you should be paying attention to the gear in the sigs. That's what's used, that's where the dollars went.

Yes, lots of users of this forum (in particular) have mega bucks tied up in their single-use boxes, so actives will be a hard sell to these die hards to ditch their costly boxes in favour of a pair of speakers, even though these may well be better at reproducing music as it was oroginally heard in the live performance.

It will be interesting to read reviews of the Munich Show. My hunch is that there will be more modern (not traditional ones such as ATC) active speakers that need nothing more than power and Ethernet cables. And my second hunch is that many of these will receive rave reviews. We don't have long to wait!

 

[still-one]

The reason the all in one won’t likely be as satisfactory nor anywhere near as good as the cobbled together mix and match is because in order for this to be the case every speaker company would have to get as good at building amps, DACs, streamers as they are as building speakers in the first place. Not likely to happen. Nor will Boulder likely compete with Wilson or Magico anytime soon.

The only way I see this being a serious direction is if all companies agreed to a standard for size and shape of these components and built them so folks could still have their Wilson XVX with Boulder amps … just the form factor would be different than it is today. Then again that’s assuming that the Boulder performance could be built into a speaker cabinet in the first place which I highly doubt. Then there are the tube guys like me …

It was said earlier and I agree totally … that time as always … will tell!

George

You might be looking at this from a North American perspective. In Europe there seems to be several high end companies that provide the whole enchilada. Take MBL, Burmester, Gryphion as examples. They all do provide everything with varying degrees of success as does McIntosh in NA.

 

[chops]

You make a very good case for the complex product designed and built by a single company - Lexus in your example. Why do you think that the likes of Avantgarde won't offer the same quality, reliability, longevity, pride of ownership and everything you love about your vintage Lexus?

There are others here who agree that actives will become increasingly popular over the next several years - read the replies or look at the Likes.

There will still of course be dinosaurs who love to show off their beautiful work-of-art turntables, piles of single-use electronics and their associated snake-pit of cables and shelves sagging under the weight of a thousand LPs, but most will sooner or later see the light as they visit showrooms and shows to listen to modern active systems. :congrats:

I never said that Avantgarde or anyone else wouldn't make a quality, reliable active loudspeaker. Nor did I say that they wouldn't become increasingly popular.

What I DID say is that no serious audiophile will sell off all of his/her gear in favor of a all-in-one active loudspeaker, and that active loudspeakers will NEVER replace a full-on traditional system.

 

[chops]

You might be looking at this from a North American perspective. In Europe there seems to be several high end companies that provide the whole enchilada. Take MBL, Burmester, Gryphion as examples. They all do provide everything with varying degrees of success as does McIntosh in NA.

Also Bryston and PS Audio in NA.

 

[Hear Here]

What I DID say is that no serious audiophile will sell off all of his/her gear in favor of a all-in-one active loudspeaker, and that active loudspeakers will NEVER replace a full-on traditional system.

But please explain why this may be. If a good all-in-one sounds better than a multi-box systen cobbled together by an "audiophile", why shouldn't the sensible audiophile not improve his listening experience by moving to the all-in-one?

Is it merely a vanily reason - some high end stuff does look lovely - that collectors of fancy box place this aspect of the hobby above the sound that reaches their ears?

I'm not suggesting I'm right or you are wrong, but just putting the logical justification of the benefits of a modern active speaker system. Many of us have already moved from preamp and monos to an integrated and many choose integrateds with DAC buit in. The fully-fledged active speaker system is en extension of this trend, but with the benefit that speaker drivers can be driven by their own, specifically-designed amps without capacitors and coils in a passive crossover muddying the sound.

I hope you agree this is a worthwhile general discussion, whatever your own views may be.

 

[chops]

Well, as Mr Peabody said above, this thread is just going around in circles at this point, and I have no vested interest in active loudspeakers, no matter who makes them or how good they sound. It's just not my thing and never will be. I know I can do better going the traditional route.

This thread would be in the same lines as me arguing with people about electric vehicles. I have zero vested interest in EV's as well. Again, they're not my thing, nor will they ever be. And likewise, I can do better with traditional internal combustion engines. Even with my 22 year old gas-drinking 4.3L V8, I can manage better than 420 miles to a tank on long trips. Five minutes to refuel and I can do it all over again. As of right now, there's only one EV that can do better than that, and it's a Lucid Air which I've never heard of before, at 516 miles to a full charge. Oh, and it starts at $140k. No thanks.

So with that being said, I believe I'll exit this thread.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Fortunately the market has developed in such a way that brands don't need to start from scratch if looking for streamer, DAC, amp or DSP to include in their fully active speakers.

Equally fortunate is there are brands that would not include any of that streaming, Roon, etc, etc. in active speakers, that can do what no passive speaker extant can.
As always, different strokes for different folks. Some will always want the audiophile shrine of worship acoustically interfering, others wont.

cheers,

AJ

 

[RDSChicago]

I’m using the Dutch & Dutch 8Cs. I was curious to see what active speakers can do, and while I sometimes get nostalgic and miss tinkering around with separates, cables etc. I’m now focusing more on the enjoyment of music.

I remain satisfied with the 8Cs, to the extent I’m not spending as much time on audiophile websites and have stopped the never-ending audiophile’s seemingly constant search for the next holy grail component or next pair of “endgame” speakers.

Hence, I agree with the OP that fully active, all-in-one systems will supplant separates and become the gold standard of high-quality, superlative sound in the not too distant future.

 

[Hear Here]

I’m using the Dutch & Dutch 8Cs. I was curious to see what active speakers can do, and while I sometimes get nostalgic and miss tinkering around with separates, cables etc. I’m now focusing more on the enjoyment of music.

I remain satisfied with the 8Cs, to the extent I’m not spending as much time on audiophile websites and have stopped the never-ending audiophile’s seemingly constant search for the next holy grail component or next pair of “endgame” speakers.

Hence, I agree with the OP that fully active, all-in-one systems will supplant separates and become the gold standard of high-quality, superlative sound in the not too distant future.

How refreshingly sensible. The endless search for upgrades in a multi-box system seems to define an "audiophile". On the other hand those such as yourself (and hopefully I'll join you soon) are less interested in the boxes needed to fill our equipment racks and more on the experience of listening to music delivered into our homes as near as possible to an original performance. Boxes vs Music! There's plenty of room for those in both camps and we can each decide on our individual attitude to this hobby.

 

[CPP]

How refreshingly sensible. The endless search for upgrades in a multi-box system seems to define an "audiophile". On the other hand those such as yourself (and hopefully I'll join you soon) are less interested in the boxes needed to fill our equipment racks and more on the experience of listening to music delivered into our homes as near as possible to an original performance. Boxes vs Music! There's plenty of room for those in both camps and we can each decide on our individual attitude to this hobby.

As I age, that's the direction I'm moving to as well.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I’m now focusing more on the enjoyment of music.

That's crazy

 

[Mr Peabody]

So we will be seeing your sig updated soon?

I’m using the Dutch & Dutch 8Cs. I was curious to see what active speakers can do, and while I sometimes get nostalgic and miss tinkering around with separates, cables etc. I’m now focusing more on the enjoyment of music.

I remain satisfied with the 8Cs, to the extent I’m not spending as much time on audiophile websites and have stopped the never-ending audiophile’s seemingly constant search for the next holy grail component or next pair of “endgame” speakers.

Hence, I agree with the OP that fully active, all-in-one systems will supplant separates and become the gold standard of high-quality, superlative sound in the not too distant future.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I have to laugh at you insinuating no one but those with powered speakers can enjoy their music. Newsflash one can enjoy the music on whatever it's played on whether multiple components or not, just because we may want to improve the sound some place in the system, or not, says nothing to how one enjoys what they hear.