VPI Avenger

MDP

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When I was at RMAF I talked to Myles about what he thought I should do about my next TT. He said I should check out the new Avenger from VPI. I hadn't heard a thing about this table before that. Little did I know that I would see this table in about 7 different rooms. Not only is it beautiful to look at, it sounded glorious in every room I heard it in. It's a tripod design with a separate motor system. You can get it with the standard Classic platter or with a newly designed "Magnetic Platter". You can mount up to 3 different tonearms. I believe it also includes the SDS speed controller.
I'm trying hard to come up with the money for this table, it will be my last TT and I want it bad! I believe that there is 3 different drive systems to choose from also.
 
Mark,

Now is the time! Come hell or high water, need to squeeze one out. :D
 
Mark-I think you will be very happy. I hope you get the magnetic drive with it and the SDS. The Avenger looked wicked in the Joseph Audio room with the 3 tonearms mounted.
 
the Avenger is an interesting table, is there a consensus or review on the merits of magnetic drive besides what the designer claims? I never owned the rim drive but a long time dealer advised against it (too noisy), the fly wheel tables were a mixed bag. how about a three pulley TNT, then just one pulley, spring suspension was the way to go and then air bladders then squash balls to the 'elephant' feet. You want an acrylic platter? then they find the steel/delrin is best then overnight they're back to aluminum. VPI amends their designs like a weather vane changes direction you never know what to expect when you open the box - no two tables seem alike! I'm a fan of Matt and Harry, I just wonder if their 'ideas' are fully vetted before they ship to customers
 
the Avenger is an interesting table, is there a consensus or review on the merits of magnetic drive besides what the designer claims? I never owned the rim drive but a long time dealer advised against it (too noisy), the fly wheel tables were a mixed bag. how about a three pulley TNT, then just one pulley, spring suspension was the way to go and then air bladders then squash balls to the 'elephant' feet. You want an acrylic platter? then they find the steel/delrin is best then overnight they're back to aluminum. VPI amends their designs like a weather vane changes direction you never know what to expect when you open the box - no two tables seem alike! I'm a fan of Matt and Harry, I just wonder if their 'ideas' are fully vetted before they ship to customers

Rob, I bought the original Classic TT when it first came out. And I've loved it from day one. I have total faith in Harry and VPI. And I did hear the new table in 6 different rooms at RMAF.
 
the Avenger is an interesting table, is there a consensus or review on the merits of magnetic drive besides what the designer claims? I never owned the rim drive but a long time dealer advised against it (too noisy), the fly wheel tables were a mixed bag. how about a three pulley TNT, then just one pulley, spring suspension was the way to go and then air bladders then squash balls to the 'elephant' feet. You want an acrylic platter? then they find the steel/delrin is best then overnight they're back to aluminum. VPI amends their designs like a weather vane changes direction you never know what to expect when you open the box - no two tables seem alike! I'm a fan of Matt and Harry, I just wonder if their 'ideas' are fully vetted before they ship to customers

Rob-It sounds like you listened in on a conversation I had with Myles a couple of years ago as I said almost the same things verbatim. I too had the VPI TNT with the 3 pulleys and when I called to get their latest belt, they told me to ditch the two pulleys in the plinth as they just added noise. They did send me some cool plugs that snapped into the plinth that covered up the holes very nicely when I pulled the pulleys out. So yeah, 600 RPM motors, 300 RPM motors, fly wheels, rim drive, DD, and now magnetic drive. But you know what? VPI tables sound real damn good. I think the Avenger is a very cool looking table!
 
Rob, I bought the original Classic TT when it first came out. And I've loved it from day one. I have total faith in Harry and VPI. And I did hear the new table in 6 different rooms at RMAF.

The classic went through changes too with the location of the power switch, the way the motor was mounted, the design of the pulley, etc. Maybe Avenger is a home run, for the money you could do worse (or maybe better). I guess if you jump in, do it while its still 15k look what happed to pricing on the Prime.
 
The classic went through changes too with the location of the power switch, the way the motor was mounted, the design of the pulley, etc. Maybe Avenger is a home run, for the money you could do worse (or maybe better). I guess if you jump in, do it while its still 15k look what happed to pricing on the Prime.

Truthfully, the original Prime price was always advertised as an introductory price.
 
I agree with Mark's impressions of the Avenger. We spent a lot of time together this past weekend at RMAF; including several demos in the Joseph Audio room. The Avenger looked fabulous and sounded tremendously musical, coherent with plenty of detail and excellent bottom end. I personally have been tempted to get one even though I've had different plans for my system.
 


this room needs to be in my basement. I've been waiting to see what the actual Avenger pricing will be. Bob's devices web page has had it listed with 2 3D tone arms, SDS, and periphery ring for 15k for a while now. Relatively speaking, the sounds like a bargain. I'm not quite sure how it could be that much less than the HRX current pricing, but one can dream...and start waiting in line for delivery...behind me of course :woot::cool:
 
I never owned the rim drive but a long time dealer advised against it (too noisy), the fly wheel tables were a mixed bag. how about a three pulley TNT, then just one pulley, spring suspension was the way to go and then air bladders then squash balls to the 'elephant' feet. You want an acrylic platter? then they find the steel/delrin is best then overnight they're back to aluminum. VPI amends their designs like a weather vane changes direction

I agree completely. I had for many years a VPI TNT Mk. IV. I liked it a lot, but I had trouble with the air bladders.

I grew weary of watching Harry's design schizophrenia. Either three pulleys sound better than one or they don't. Either aluminum is better than delrin or it's not. An engineer likes belt drive or rim drive or direct drive, but not all three.

Harry's design philosophy of not having a design philosophy annoyed me over time.
 
I agree completely. I had for many years a VPI TNT Mk. IV. I liked it a lot, but I had trouble with the air bladders.

I grew weary of watching Harry's design schizophrenia. Either three pulleys sound better than one or they don't. Either aluminum is better than delrin or it's not. An engineer likes belt drive or rim drive or direct drive, but not all three.

Harry's design philosophy of not having a design philosophy annoyed me over time.

When "Mike" retired from VPI they stopped offering parts and upgrades for the older 'tables because he was the only person in the co. that could figure out what combobulation of parts you had.

when the topic of VPI comes up with other TT mfrs they all love Harry with the utmost respect but the jokes are at his expense. "design schizophrenia" that's a good one!
 
I agree completely. I had for many years a VPI TNT Mk. IV. I liked it a lot, but I had trouble with the air bladders.

I grew weary of watching Harry's design schizophrenia. Either three pulleys sound better than one or they don't. Either aluminum is better than delrin or it's not. An engineer likes belt drive or rim drive or direct drive, but not all three.

Harry's design philosophy of not having a design philosophy annoyed me over time.

Perhaps you should look at the platter options as which fits better within the confines of your system's sound. The Air Force tables give you the same flexibility.

But what is wrong with at that time, that's what Harry liked and thought sounded best or the best at that time. But technology changes quickly nowadays.

Also consider that the reason Harry switched had nothing to do with the sound but availability of raw materials, advantages different materials brought to the machining process, new machining processes became available as time moved on, making things easier for the consumer to set up and get the best sound, etc. For instance, Al allows Harry to machines the platter to roundness tolerances not possible with metacrylate. Plus the roundness is far more stable during the machining process and not subject to temperature or humidity changes. He also could only machine the methacrylate platters at certain times of the year. Not to mention the plastic in a form he wanted to use became only available from China and the samples he tried were crap.

IIRC, and I had one the first TNTs with pulleys, the three pulley system was around for a couple of years before HW changed the drive system. Perhaps it was that other changes in technology, speed control, belts or in the drive system superceded the pulley drive and made that obsolete? Or that the issue with the rim drive was more consumer setup. What's so bad about that? Or that the DD is the best but is very expensive to implement correctly and the magnetic/belt system of the Avenger is the closest he can come to the DD at less cost. (But a DD could be dropped into the Avenger if wanted). BTW the DD is a labor of love as the profit margin is very slim.

Why doesn't anyone credit Harry with building customer loyalty by allowing customers to buy the basic table and upgrade over time?
 
Dear Myles,


Thank you for commenting. Your points are all fair enough!


I have found that engineers (like politicians) have design (policy) preferences. This may be my personal preference but I want a product designed by an engineer who believes in the superiority of his design over competing designs. I think it is puzzling that Harry has been all over the place with his designs over the years.


If VPI's business model is to offer options to customers, then why hasn’t VPI continued to offer older designs so that customers can pick their design preference and sonic flavor preference? I think the answer is because Harry thinks each change of drive type, motor, pulley, plinth, platter, material, belt, etc., is an improvement. (Otherwise one might suspect Harry is just trying to sell his latest (and, presumably, greatest) design over and over to the same hapless customers who thought they had already bought an expression of Harry’s best ideas. (No, I do not believe this is what is behind all of the design changes. I truly believe the explanation is simply that Harry is an enthusiastic tinkerer.))


In my experience an engineer plans a design and takes views on a wide variety of variables to execute that design and to create a product. I am not an engineer. I want a turntable engineer to figure all this stuff out (drive system, suspension design, plinth design and material, vibration and resonance control, platter design and material, type of motor, type of electrical drive system of the motor, tonearm attachment structure, tonearm cable relief, etc.). That is his job -- to make the best turntable he can (sometimes to a price point). That is not my job. I am relying upon him to make the best product he can so I can bask in the maximum emotional involvement flowing from the music recreated by his product.


I do not want a engineer who cannot make up his mind as to what he believes is theoretically and then practically the best design. I want an engineer who knows his stuff and comes to definitive (if subject to change) conclusions about what is best. A.J. is very certain about why, from an engineering point of view, vacuum hold-down is the best engineering solution. Touraj is equally certain why, from an engineering point of view, vacuum hold-down and clamping are bad engineering solutions. (The disagreement is fine, even invigorating. My point is that I want an engineer whose design embodies the courage of his convictions.)


I just think it is odd that Harry is a bit of a design schizophrenic. It makes sense to me that an engineer changes his mind over time as he experiments and makes new discoveries with designs and materials and manufacturing techniques and technologies. It makes sense to me that a product evolves over time. You can see in the Basis Inspiration ideas embodied in the Debut. You can see in the Vertere RG-1 ideas embodied in Roxsan turntables. Design improvement and evolution make sense to me.


Some of Harry’s designs have evolved over time (one pulley to three pulleys and then back to one pulley), but Harry often starts each time with a clean slate. I am not an engineer, but I do not understand the apparent lack of a coherent, internally-consistent engineering philosophy which drives the VPI designs.


I do credit Harry with building products which allow customers to buy the basic table and upgrade over time. But he has tended to give existing customers fast-moving targets! : )


(PS: I am not intending to single out for praise or derision or promotion Basis Audio and Vertere. I just happen to have the greatest familiarity with the thinking behind their respective designs, so I used them in my examples.)

 
It's been a popular thing to do on the internet, bashing VPI. I hear what everyone says and respect your opinions. But one thing is certain, VPI tables sound fantastic!

So if it's not your thing, that's fine. But I'm all in on this one, it will be my last TT. It's beautiful to look at and beautiful to listen to!!
And thats all I'm looking for in a TT.
 
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But are you springing for magnetic drive too Mark...that's the big question?!?!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Nowhere in my essay am I "bashing VPI." Is no question about a company ever able to be broached?

Yes, VPI turntables sound fantastic, just as many other turntables sound fantastic. I never remotely suggested otherwise. I enjoyed greatly for 18 years my VPI TNT Mk. IV.

PS: I have seen magnetic drive only on the Clearaudio Master Innovation -- and I think it is very cool!
 
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