Ultrasonic Record Cleaners ???

So would a bio-enzyme additive as used by the Audiodesk offer some further anti-fungal growth protection for vinyl whilst in storage where RH & temperature is higher?
 
Fungal mould is the biggest & deadliest vinyl killer & it can spread throughout your collection. Even microscopic spores will lead to damage. RH % is not such a problem in Melbourne provided there is no persistent damp storage environment to begin with.

Of course there is a risk of spores spreading across washes with contaminated water. Filtration would help some & you would hope that ultrasonics would neutralise anything floating in the water. I would be very happy to live with minute traces of bi-enzyme residue on my washed & dried records if I knew that such traces were working as a protective barrier against potential fungal mould growth when in storage.
 
Steve said:
Fungal mould is the biggest & deadliest vinyl killer & it can spread throughout your collection. Even microscopic spores will lead to damage. RH % is not such a problem in Melbourne provided there is no persistent damp storage environment to begin with.

Of course there is a risk of spores spreading across washes with contaminated water. Filtration would help some & you would hope that ultrasonics would neutralise anything floating in the water. I would be very happy to live with minute traces of bi-enzyme residue on my washed & dried records if I knew that such traces were working as a protective barrier against potential fungal mould growth when in storage.
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Heat is not much to worry about unless it's enough to warp or comes with high RH. High RH even at room temp is a concern. Ultrasonics don't really neutralize anything, but does lead to breaking up, dissolving and removing most contaminants from your records. Using enzyme cleaners helps in attacking any protein-based contaminants and neutralizing fungal mold as would some sort of anti fungal mold growth protectant. (Although I don't know of anything that would be good to use on records off hand. I don't know that products like GrooveGlide provide that sort of protection and personally I would not use such a product as it does more harm to your stylus than it helps your records in any way. Perhaps someone here knows of something).

I think the best defense is making sure rinse water is nice and clean and using proper inner sleeves and where you store your records. I don't think the ultrasonic RCMs have a rinse cycle with separate water, do they? Of course, it's not really needed with the first 2 or 3 records, but after that I can well hypothesize that lighter contaminants that don't dissolve, such as spores could be floating around in the tank. I'm thinking one can change out the water of the RCM every 3 or 4 records, but that could be a PITA depending on how easy it is to do on any particular machine.
If the RCM has a good strong vacuum though, that should take care of anything not actually stuck to the record. Blow-drying and especially room air-drying (as in setting in a dish-rack or something) would not be as effective against spores as vacuuming. With blow-drying there is potential that the spores would still be floating in the air after being blown off. Of course, room air-drying has obvious draw-backs even to the casual observer. Not to illicit paranoia or something, but remember, just taking a record in and out of a sleeve to play it exposes it to having spores and other contaminants land on it. Of course, that's why we have carbon fiber brushes and such.

If RH is of concern, you could use the inner sleeves Myles suggested, otherwise you should not have much to worry about depending on where you store your records.

Don't store your records near any heat source of course and not in any areas that are prone to dampness (even a little), such as basements (unless it's a finished basement turned into a man-cave or something with climate control and all that), etc. Do not store near windows either.

Just my 2 cents.
 
When it comes to vinyl, no doubt I'm a paranoid vinyl Nazi with a systematic regime.

I wash new vinyl & re-sleeve with new MoFi inner sleeves before any play. After each play, I wash & use the new sleeve. I never sleeve a played record. That's why I bought the Audiodesk & a stack of consumables before getting back into vinyl & investing heavily into the medium & associated playback equipment.

I'm inclined to think that a bio-enzyme additive will help to disinfect the water & help to maintain machine tanked water purity levels longer. If there is a chemist with an Audiodesk and/or Klaudio, please run some extended water quality tests & post your results. Most of us, store our units filled with water, top up on evaporation & change the water periodically after x washes.
 
Steve said:
When it comes to vinyl, no doubt I'm a paranoid vinyl Nazi with a systematic regime.

I wash new vinyl & re-sleeve with new MoFi inner sleeves before any play. After each play, I wash & use the new sleeve. I never sleeve a played record. That's why I bought the Audiodesk & a stack of consumables before getting back into vinyl & investing heavily into the medium & associated playback equipment.

I'm inclined to think that a bio-enzyme additive will help to disinfect the water & help to maintain machine tanked water purity levels longer. If there is a chemist with an Audiodesk and/or Klaudio, please run some extended water quality tests & post your results. Most of us, store our units filled with water, top up on evaporation & change the water periodically after x washes.
Click to expand...

...and there is not anything wrong with being a paranoid vinyl nazi with a systematic regime when it come to vinyl care. (Well, perhaps the "nazi" part may be a bit much).

So you wash and use a new sleeve after each play? I don't think you need to do that, but then I do not know your environment, so you may need to do that for all I know.

Hmm...I would think storing the unit filled with water is not a good idea. Think about it. A totally wet environment and also storage temperature could lead to bad bacteria and contaminate growth in the tank, especially if there are any things such as spores left over in it and it only takes one.
 
MusicDirector said:
Heat is not much to worry about unless it's enough to warp or comes with high RH. High RH even at room temp is a concern. Ultrasonics don't really neutralize anything, but does lead to breaking up, dissolving and removing most contaminants from your records. Using enzyme cleaners helps in attacking any protein-based contaminants and neutralizing fungal mold as would some sort of anti fungal mold growth protectant. (Although I don't know of anything that would be good to use on records off hand. I don't know that products like GrooveGlide provide that sort of protection and personally I would not use such a product as it does more harm to your stylus than it helps your records in any way. Perhaps someone here knows of something).

I think the best defense is making sure rinse water is nice and clean and using proper inner sleeves and where you store your records. I don't think the ultrasonic RCMs have a rinse cycle with separate water, do they? Of course, it's not really needed with the first 2 or 3 records, but after that I can well hypothesize that lighter contaminants that don't dissolve, such as spores could be floating around in the tank. I'm thinking one can change out the water of the RCM every 3 or 4 records, but that could be a PITA depending on how easy it is to do on any particular machine.
If the RCM has a good strong vacuum though, that should take care of anything not actually stuck to the record. Blow-drying and especially room air-drying (as in setting in a dish-rack or something) would not be as effective against spores as vacuuming. With blow-drying there is potential that the spores would still be floating in the air after being blown off. Of course, room air-drying has obvious draw-backs even to the casual observer. Not to illicit paranoia or something, but remember, just taking a record in and out of a sleeve to play it exposes it to having spores and other contaminants land on it. Of course, that's why we have carbon fiber brushes and such.

If RH is of concern, you could use the inner sleeves Myles suggested, otherwise you should not have much to worry about depending on where you store your records.

Don't store your records near any heat source of course and not in any areas that are prone to dampness (even a little), such as basements (unless it's a finished basement turned into a man-cave or something with climate control and all that), etc. Do not store near windows either.

Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

Sonic action will disrupt any bacterum or fungus and kill it so no need for additives there. Adding anything else to the surface will affect the sound of the record.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Sonic action will disrupt any bacterum or fungus and kill it so no need for additives there. Adding anything else to the surface will affect the sound of the record.
Click to expand...

Was not aware that sonic action could do that. Makes me wonder why they don't use it more in medical procedures.
Yes, adding anything to the surface of a record is a no-no, that's why I recommend against products like GruvGlide and anything else like it. It not only effects the sound, but can potentially do harm to both the record and the cartridge.
 
MusicDirector said:
Was not aware that sonic action could do that. Makes me wonder why they don't use it more in medical procedures.
Yes, adding anything to the surface of a record is a no-no, that's why I recommend against products like GruvGlide and anything else like it. It not only effects the sound, but can potentially do harm to both the record and the cartridge.
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US can be used to sterilize but there are more effective means.

But US is often used by biochemists to rupture cells and release the internal contents as say for doing enzymatic studies.

It's not necessarily how well RCFs work but what they leave behind that matters. Just as the issue with with vacuum machines is hydrodynamics. In other words, as the amount of fluid on the record decreases, the surface tension increases. So records cleaned with machines like the VPI Typhoon with big vacuum motors sound better eg. quieter, more transparent, etc. Of course one does have to be careful with high vacuum motors not to pull the plasticizer out of the record. :(

It's only a hypothesis but the sonic differences between the Audio Deske and KLaudio may simply be due to the AD's use of a surfactant in the water. IIRC correctly, MikeL commented somewhere that some people had actually reduced the amount of AD additive being added to the water.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
US can be used to sterilize but there are more effective means.

But US is often used by biochemists to rupture cells and release the internal contents as say for doing enzymatic studies.
Click to expand...

I know US is also used for things like kidney stones, but that's all I'm aware of and that is not the effect we are talking about. I suppose there may be safety considerations regarding certain organs in the body as well if US was to be applied in such a way. You know, sure it killed the bad bacteria and all, but also killed the patient. Not the outcome we were looking for.:)
 
MusicDirector said:
I know US is also used for things like kidney stones, but that's all I'm aware of and that is not the effect we are talking about. I suppose there may be safety considerations regarding certain organs in the body as well if US was to be applied in such a way. You know, sure it killed the bad bacteria and all, but also killed the patient. Not the outcome we were looking for.:)
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Lithotripsy is "super" ultrasound. Also sometimes used to treat tennis elbow etc.
 
MerrillAudio said:
The KL Audio allows distilled or regular tap water for cleaning. Take your pick. Of course for purist, distilled water is used. The instructions say not to add anything else but many I know have put in additions, some to change the ph as fat absorbers (fatty items left from new record process).
Click to expand...

I wonder if this "fat" is what I have occasionally found on the surface of my new LPs that had a trip through the KLaudio? I mentioned I think in another thread. I occasionally find some small gobs of goo on the surface that did not exist when the new record went into the machine. I've had to use an enzyme cleaner to remove these, with a fair amount of scrubbing with a microfiber cloth.

I didn't know mold-release compound included a "fat" but it makes sense.

Maybe Miles can comment, he's the vinyl guru?
 
Bobvin said:
I wonder if this "fat" is what I have occasionally found on the surface of my new LPs that had a trip through the KLaudio? I mentioned I think in another thread. I occasionally find some small gobs of goo on the surface that did not exist when the new record went into the machine. I've had to use an enzyme cleaner to remove these, with a fair amount of scrubbing with a microfiber cloth.

I didn't know mold-release compound included a "fat" but it makes sense.

Maybe Miles can comment, he's the vinyl guru?
Click to expand...

As I remember, there are some stearates in the vinyl mix. Mold release is always described as a type of PAM. As I understand it, it's not sprayed on but part of the plastic mix.

What I found with some cartridges, most notably the Atlas, is that there is a buildup of gunk on the stylus after playing. Noted the same thing with the Audio Deske too.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
US can be used to sterilize but there are more effective means.

But US is often used by biochemists to rupture cells and release the internal contents as say for doing enzymatic studies.

It's not necessarily how well RCFs work but what they leave behind that matters. Just as the issue with with vacuum machines is hydrodynamics. In other words, as the amount of fluid on the record decreases, the surface tension increases. So records cleaned with machines like the VPI Typhoon with big vacuum motors sound better eg. quieter, more transparent, etc. Of course one does have to be careful with high vacuum motors not to pull the plasticizer out of the record. :(

It's only a hypothesis but the sonic differences between the Audio Deske and KLaudio may simply be due to the AD's use of a surfactant in the water. IIRC correctly, MikeL commented somewhere that some people had actually reduced the amount of AD additive being added to the water.
Click to expand...

Thanks Myles, that sort of answers a theoretical question on my mind from way back.

I know the vacuums on machines such as the VPI Typhoon and even the 16.5 (could be the same vacuum) are strong, but I don't think they could pull the plasticizer out of a record, could they? They aren't atomic strength vacuums or something. Anyway, isn't the plasticizer added into the mix of PVC to make the record in the first place and therefore locked in you could say. I mean it doesn't sit on the surface or anything? Hmm...however, it does say in the instructions for all models of VPI machines and the Okki Nokki, Clear Audio, etc. "do not turn on the vacuum while the platter is not turning" or something to that effect, so that kind of makes one wonder. I mean, who is going to do that anyway, but still....

That said though, I would think the cleaning fluid used would have more effect if "pulling out the plasticizer" and whatnot. For instance, a mixture with too much alcohol of any grade would potentially do that, not to mention cause the protein-based contaminates to harden to the groove walls of the record making them next to impossible to remove.

Most record cleaning fluids have a surfactant added, I think. I wonder though if a US RCM would really need one though?
 
So how often do owners of the Audiodesk & Klaudio change their water?

I have had water in the Audiodesk for approx. 1 month, no smells or apparent nasties.
Even the rollers were still moist. I pulled them to check & they were as clean as a whistle. I have perspex cover on it with spacers, so it breathes & would evaporate very slowly. The unit sits in an Ikea Besta unit ready to be turned on & used. The doors show no condensation marks. I fired it up & ran a blank cycle just to recirculate the water.

Audio-Desk-Vinyl-Washer-2.jpg
 
Every 100 cleans/cycles. I keep a log (pad of paper and check marks).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Steve said:
When it comes to vinyl, no doubt I'm a paranoid vinyl Nazi with a systematic regime.

I wash new vinyl & re-sleeve with new MoFi inner sleeves before any play. After each play, I wash & use the new sleeve. I never sleeve a played record. That's why I bought the Audiodesk & a stack of consumables before getting back into vinyl & investing heavily into the medium & associated playback equipment.

I'm inclined to think that a bio-enzyme additive will help to disinfect the water & help to maintain machine tanked water purity levels longer. If there is a chemist with an Audiodesk and/or Klaudio, please run some extended water quality tests & post your results. Most of us, store our units filled with water, top up on evaporation & change the water periodically after x washes.
Click to expand...

Steve, I think you are sounding a little paranoid about problems that don't really exist :exciting:

I have been buying records for over 30 years now and only got an RCM probably 15 years ago. All my records from 20 and 30 years ago are still perfect, after many hundreds of plays.

The number one preventative maintenance I have always used is to have every lp in a plastic/poly lined inner sleeve. This protects your precious vinyl from everything - Period.

If you feel the need to buy more expensive mofi or whatever inner sleeves, knock yourself out, but they do exactly the same job as the cheap round bottomed plastic inners.

Having a RCM or US RCM really is cream, not necessary but hard to live without once you have experienced them.

Cheers
 
My Klaudio US cleaner is on it's way to me, delivery scheduled for next Tuesday :exciting:
 
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