Tubed Power Amplifiers. Are the disadvantages too great ?

For me currently, I would say no. I don't see it as a disadvantage, just the potential reality of owning Tube Equipment. Things can and do go wrong, there is no doubt.
If I found SS that sounded the way my amps do I would consider it. I think the cost would be rather substantial. I have not had the opportunity to listen to a lot of hi quality SS amps with Martin Logan speakers so my opinion is just my gut feeling.

I'm hoping the rebuild of my amps will give me another 15+ years. By then, if I'm still around, my hearing, may be such that it won't much matter.

For now, I staying with my tubes.
 
Basic engineering principles and TRIZ teach us there is almost always more than one way to mediate a transfer function. And in audio, everything is a transfer function. Theoretically, this means there should not be differences in amplifier "quality" simply based on using a tube vs. SS devices, and this certainly applies to output power devices for amplifiers.

In my experience, though, one generally needs to spend "multiples of cost" more money for a SS amp that can compete with respect to audio quality with a well-designed tube amplifier. Just as hypothetical example, with respect to say a well-designed and manufactured tube amp that uses quality parts (components e.g. caps and resistors, etc.) that say, costs $5K, one is generally looking at >$15K for a SS amp that will sound as good or better. This is a generalization, and of course, there are always exceptions, but it's been a consistent personal observation in decades in this wacky hobby.

The thing that's been of concern to me recently, though, is the reliability, durability, and availability of tubes these days. While my data is anecdotal, it seems that recently manufactured tubes, both input (e.g. 6922s, etc) and output, e.g. KT120 and KT150s are not as durable as they were, say, 10 years ago. This may be due to availabilty and/or variability in the materials used for manufacturing tubes these days. That being said, if I were looking for an amplifier these days, I'd be looking at getting a good SS amp, e.g. Constellation, DarTZeel, Pass, First Watt, or Lumin.
 
What about output transformers on most tube designs? Don't they "color" the sound?

The "warmth" of these designs are really IMD (intermodular distortion) that is pleasing to the human ear.
 
Puma Cat said:
In my experience, though, one generally needs to spend "multiples of cost" more money for a SS amp that can compete with respect to audio quality with a well-designed tube amplifier. Just as hypothetical example, with respect to say a well-designed and manufactured tube amp that uses quality parts (components e.g. caps and resistors, etc.) that say, costs $5K, one is generally looking at >$15K for a SS amp that will sound as good or better. This is a generalization, and of course, there are always exceptions, but it's been a consistent personal observation in decades in this wacky hobby.
Click to expand...

Class D seems to be offering a less expensive route to that end, IME.
 
Puma Cat said:
Basic engineering principles and TRIZ teach us there is almost always more than one way to mediate a transfer function. And in audio, everything is a transfer function. Theoretically, this means there should not be differences in amplifier "quality" simply based on using a tube vs. SS devices, and this certainly applies to output power devices for amplifiers.

In my experience, though, one generally needs to spend "multiples of cost" more money for a SS amp that can compete with respect to audio quality with a well-designed tube amplifier. Just as hypothetical example, with respect to say a well-designed and manufactured tube amp that uses quality parts (components e.g. caps and resistors, etc.) that say, costs $5K, one is generally looking at >$15K for a SS amp that will sound as good or better. This is a generalization, and of course, there are always exceptions, but it's been a consistent personal observation in decades in this wacky hobby.

The thing that's been of concern to me recently, though, is the reliability, durability, and availability of tubes these days. While my data is anecdotal, it seems that recently manufactured tubes, both input (e.g. 6922s, etc) and output, e.g. KT120 and KT150s are not as durable as they were, say, 10 years ago. This may be due to availabilty and/or variability in the materials used for manufacturing tubes these days. That being said, if I were looking for an amplifier these days, I'd be looking at getting a good SS amp, e.g. Constellation, DarTZeel, Pass, First Watt, or Lumin.
Click to expand...

The BOM on any SS amp watt for watt is significantly less than that for a toob amp ...!


Regards
 
Again to the reliability issue - there's a recent Audiogon thread about a new Parasound JC-5 (solid state) that blew AND killed the owner's JBL speakers with it! I don't remember reading any recent "speaker killer" complaints about a tube amp, and any issues you do see are usually concerning Chinese-made tube amps. Modern tube amps from known reliable US/Euro/Japanese tube manufacturers are pretty rock solid. Add in modern auto-bias and protection circuity (which is truly wonderful), and it's even better. You have to replace tubes periodically, but when you factor in speaker safety I'm starting to feel like I trust tube amps MORE than solid state. A lot of the concern voiced about tube amp reliability is simply speculation, or based on poor choices (that $500 tube amp from amazon or aliexpress).
 
How about a link to that thread on Audiogon where a new JC5 amp blew up and took out a pair of JBL speakers? Just asking for a friend.
 
mulveling said:
Again to the reliability issue - there's a recent Audiogon thread about a new Parasound JC-5 (solid state) that blew AND killed the owner's JBL speakers with it! I don't remember reading any recent "speaker killer" complaints about a tube amp, and any issues you do see are usually concerning Chinese-made tube amps. Modern tube amps from known reliable US/Euro/Japanese tube manufacturers are pretty rock solid. Add in modern auto-bias and protection circuity (which is truly wonderful), and it's even better. You have to replace tubes periodically, but when you factor in speaker safety I'm starting to feel like I trust tube amps MORE than solid state. A lot of the concern voiced about tube amp reliability is simply speculation, or based on poor choices (that $500 tube amp from amazon or aliexpress).
Click to expand...

Here is the first person account: Audiogon Discussion Forum
 
mulveling said:
Again to the reliability issue - there's a recent Audiogon thread about a new Parasound JC-5 (solid state) that blew AND killed the owner's JBL speakers with it! I don't remember reading any recent "speaker killer" complaints about a tube amp, and any issues you do see are usually concerning Chinese-made tube amps. Modern tube amps from known reliable US/Euro/Japanese tube manufacturers are pretty rock solid. Add in modern auto-bias and protection circuity (which is truly wonderful), and it's even better. You have to replace tubes periodically, but when you factor in speaker safety I'm starting to feel like I trust tube amps MORE than solid state. A lot of the concern voiced about tube amp reliability is simply speculation, or based on poor choices (that $500 tube amp from amazon or aliexpress).
Click to expand...

You are correct pure Tube Amps seem to slide under the radar when it comes to DC destruction of Speakers /etc.

in my 70 years owning Gears the only "tubes installed Amp" I had that destroyed Speaker Drivers was a Brand new just unpacked Counterpoint

Pre and Hybrid Power Amp Combo which proceeded to smoke out the room with unabashed fury taking outa pair of Spender BC1's.

The only other time was mid 70's Amcron 150 Pre and Power dittoed a new pair of JBL Jubal L65's in a mini Chernobyl !

I definitely recommend avoidance of the Pre + Amp brands mentioned above for the sake of your sanity and wallet

End of Rant:(

Bruce
 
a.wayne said:
The BOM on any SS amp watt for watt is significantly less than that for a toob amp ...!


Regards
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Respectfully, what does that have to do with my comment above from any practical (i.e., real world) perspective?

Also, with respect to your comment about the BOM, where is the data that supports this statement?
 
Puma Cat said:
Respectfully, what does that have to do with my comment above from any practical (i.e., real world) perspective?

Also, with respect to your comment about the BOM, where is the data that supports this statement?
Click to expand...

:popcorn:
 
Puma Cat said:
Respectfully, what does that have to do with my comment above from any practical (i.e., real world) perspective?

Also, with respect to your comment about the BOM, where is the data that supports this statement?
Click to expand...

Its academic really , regarding your SS vs Toobs cost , if you try building both yourself , you will easily see the difference in build cost watt for watt , build , report ..!


Regards
 
mep said:
How about a link to that thread on Audiogon where a new JC5 amp blew up and took out a pair of JBL speakers? Just asking for a friend.
Click to expand...

After years of listening to clipping you are now pushing toobs are more reliable than SS ..!

:roflmao:
 
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