Tube vs. Solid State Pre Amp

Msmoto

Msmoto

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As I slowly progress back into the realm of high end audio.... or whatever, I have arrived at the point of improvement which requires a serious decision. The pre amp I am using, which sounds really very nice, but maybe not as warm as I would like, is the Mark Levinson No. 38, purchased new in 1993. When I ask manufacturers they suggest going to a tube pre amp, even suggesting McIntosh, VTL, Acoustic Research, or Lamm.....

I have an opportunity to audition a VTL 5.5 Series II and am seeking out some thoughts regarding this, if anyone has an opinion. I have as a tentative budget somewhere less than $10,000, for sure, not over this. Also, is buying used a good idea?

And, while I am asking questions, how long do the tubes in a pre amp usually last until it is advisable to replace them. Some folks suggested replacing tubes ever 2,000 hours, another said the tubes in a pre amp last forever. Any guidelines are appreciated.
 
Tube life depends on the preamp and design. Typically 3,000-4,000 hours is typical. Some preamp tubes will last 8,000-10,000 hours.

Depending on the amp, you can flavor the sound to complement your taste.

Are you still planning on using the ML 27.5 as your amp? Do you want balanced or is single ended ok?
 
Another thought might be to go with a nice tube phono pre amp and tube dac. I did that and have really enjoyed the results! ARC DAC9, ARC PH8, ML No326s, MC-601's are the electronics and got exactly what I wanted with the tubes in the sources.
 
Or something like the new McIntosh 2600 will give you tubes in all three areas and you could sell off some of the spare bits. Another option and what I am using is the Modwright LS-100 preamp with the adjustable gain/loading tube phono board. MSRP is less than half of your budget. Still plenty of great NOS 6SN7 tubes out there to outfit it with.
 
My .02 as a ML owner, if you are keeping your amp, look for a more musical solid state amp, like Pass Labs, the XP10 can be had for a reasonable price used or new. If you go with a tube preamp, I'd encourage you to look for a balanced design, not just a preamp with XLR taps for convenience, balanced topology to match the ML amp. I found running my system balanced it gave a sonic improvement. I'm not saying this is always the case but it was for me and my particular gear. It wasn't just the gain, it wasn't night and day, but when the ML and Pass both using symmetrical balanced circuits made connection via XLR there was improvement and synergy and SQ.

Some time back I had both Pass power and pre, a friend brought over a ML #326 preamp for me to try. The preamp seemed to sound fine in his system but matched to the Pass amp it didn't come close to sounding as good as my XP10. It was odd with the 326, I can only describe it as sounding like I was only getting half an image, like vocals were narrow like the person was sideways or something. I know that sounds crazy. The ML pre just didn't work with the Pass power but my Pass pre is excellent with my ML power. Have to love this hobby, LOL
 
At present I am planning on keeping the ML 27.5, using balanced inputs from the pre amp.

A tube DAC sounds interesting, will investigate more.

Regarding balanced vs. single ended, the No. 38 is a fully balanced pre amp, actually converting single ended inputs to balanced prior to any processing by the pre amp circuits... or so I understand. For many years I was running single ended from the No. 38 to the 27.5, and upon doing some research on forums in the last year or so, I changed to a fully balanced connection between the 38 and 27.5. This single change resulted in the biggest improvement in the overall sound. Detail, volume, absolutely remarkable intimacy in soft passages, an entirely new sound, simply by eliminating what I had been sold years ago...and at a whopper of a lot of cash...LOL. I suspect I have between $1,000 and $2,000 in interconnects sitting in my closet. Nearly all interconnects are now from Blue Jeans Cable, and IMO give a "clean" sound rather than the strangely colored effects of some exotic interconnects, including the solid silver types.

I am most appreciative of all the suggestions. While the No. 38 is far from being state of the art, its overall performance based upon my listening, albeit with rather old ears, is I am nearly "home" as to getting the sound I want.

What seems to be lacking, if anything, is a sweetness, or warmth in the mid and high mid range. And, as I continue to make room adjustments, the margin for improvement is growing smaller all the time.

Especially of interest is the idea of a tube DAC, taking the FLAC files from my Vault 2 (now with 152 Gb of files) into a tube DAC then into the No. 38. For about $800 I can have the No. 38 serviced, and if I keep the No. 27.5, this can be serviced for about $2200, basically bring them both up to a "new" state. Also, a tube phono amp, I like this as well.

Thanks so much to all. Will be following for any other suggestions.
 
Yeah, I knew the 38 was balanced, I was suggesting if you replace it to stick with something balanced. You really have to do research due to some brands offering a XLR connection but the circuitry isn't actually balanced.

I'm glad your experience with going balanced throughout was the same as mine, then you already know what I mean.

If you decide to keep the 38 to add a DAC consider the Lampizator, even their entry piece is a strong performer at it's price. My friend has had a few, he started with one model and keeps going up the line. I'm not sure if all the models are balanced circuitry.

Msmoto said:
At present I am planning on keeping the ML 27.5, using balanced inputs from the pre amp.

A tube DAC sounds interesting, will investigate more.

Regarding balanced vs. single ended, the No. 38 is a fully balanced pre amp, actually converting single ended inputs to balanced prior to any processing by the pre amp circuits... or so I understand. For many years I was running single ended from the No. 38 to the 27.5, and upon doing some research on forums in the last year or so, I changed to a fully balanced connection between the 38 and 27.5. This single change resulted in the biggest improvement in the overall sound. Detail, volume, absolutely remarkable intimacy in soft passages, an entirely new sound, simply by eliminating what I had been sold years ago...and at a whopper of a lot of cash...LOL. I suspect I have between $1,000 and $2,000 in interconnects sitting in my closet. Nearly all interconnects are now from Blue Jeans Cable, and IMO give a "clean" sound rather than the strangely colored effects of some exotic interconnects, including the solid silver types.

I am most appreciative of all the suggestions. While the No. 38 is far from being state of the art, its overall performance based upon my listening, albeit with rather old ears, is I am nearly "home" as to getting the sound I want.

What seems to be lacking, if anything, is a sweetness, or warmth in the mid and high mid range. And, as I continue to make room adjustments, the margin for improvement is growing smaller all the time.

Especially of interest is the idea of a tube DAC, taking the FLAC files from my Vault 2 (now with 152 Gb of files) into a tube DAC then into the No. 38. For about $800 I can have the No. 38 serviced, and if I keep the No. 27.5, this can be serviced for about $2200, basically bring them both up to a "new" state. Also, a tube phono amp, I like this as well.

Thanks so much to all. Will be following for any other suggestions.
Click to expand...
 
Msmoto said:
As I slowly progress back into the realm of high end audio.... or whatever, I have arrived at the point of improvement which requires a serious decision. The pre amp I am using, which sounds really very nice, but maybe not as warm as I would like, is the Mark Levinson No. 38, purchased new in 1993. When I ask manufacturers they suggest going to a tube pre amp, even suggesting McIntosh, VTL, Acoustic Research, or Lamm.....

I have an opportunity to audition a VTL 5.5 Series II and am seeking out some thoughts regarding this, if anyone has an opinion. I have as a tentative budget somewhere less than $10,000, for sure, not over this. Also, is buying used a good idea?

And, while I am asking questions, how long do the tubes in a pre amp usually last until it is advisable to replace them. Some folks suggested replacing tubes ever 2,000 hours, another said the tubes in a pre amp last forever. Any guidelines are appreciated.
Click to expand...

Might as well have asked people what kind of woman you should date. By the time people are finished with their recommendations, you will have either been convinced to become a nun or you will be dating a trannie. People never stick to the script-I swear. You asked for opinions on a particular tube preamp, and you have already been given recommendations to buy a tube phono section or DAC instead. Another guy is trying to point you towards another SS preamp.

So Msmoto, here is my advice for you since I have never heard the VTL 5.5 Series II outside of audio shows:You said you have an opportunity to audition the VTL and I hope that means in your system. If so, by all means bring it home, lash it up to your system, and put it through its paces. Let us know what you think of how it sounds in your system.
 
Uhm Mark, I believe Ms. Lauer is a lady and I believe in her follow up post she asked for other suggestions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I have auditioned the VTL 5.5mk2 and its VTL's only true tube linestage (the others are hybrid). I compared it to my Valvet line stage at the time and the VTL only excelled in the bass. I found it a decent linestage, but wasn't overwhelmed - when we moved up to the 6.5, I found the VTL a lot better.

At that price level, I would also be thinking Vac as Mike suggested or Nagra Jazz. All 3 will sound different, so synergy is going to be the difference but I think they will all outperform your No. 38.
 
Mike said:
Uhm Mark, I believe Ms. Lauer is a lady and I believe in her follow up post she asked for other suggestions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

OK-we will change woman to man in my story...
 
Mr Peabody said:
"not that there'd be anything wrong with that", referring to original post :) Hoping other Seinfeld fans might get it.
Click to expand...

I just never cease to be amazed that when people ask very specific questions, they get answers that have nothing to do with their original question(s). Example: I'm interested in buying a new pickup truck. What do you guys recommend?

Answers: I think you should buy a Ferrari. They look much better and are way faster.
Have you thought about buying a crossover vehicle? I think that would be a better option for you. I love my crossover vehicle.
Mini Coopers are really nice and you can probably haul whatever you need in the hatchback and you will get better gas mileage.

You get my drift...
 
Answer: VTL preamps aren't world beaters.

Want a great tube preamp? Buy an ARC or VAC.

That direct enough? [emoji846]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I got it the first time. The quote was referring to the dating analogy. Unless you seen the classicc Seinfeld episode it won't make sense.

mep said:
I just never cease to be amazed that when people ask very specific questions, they get answers that have nothing to do with their original question(s). Example: I'm interested in buying a new pickup truck. What do you guys recommend?

Answers: I think you should buy a Ferrari. They look much better and are way faster.
Have you thought about buying a crossover vehicle? I think that would be a better option for you. I love my crossover vehicle.
Mini Coopers are really nice and you can probably haul whatever you need in the hatchback and you will get better gas mileage.

You get my drift...
Click to expand...
 
I think I love you guys.... Of course there are not a lot of female audio freaks, so my presence may amaze you. But, I will audition the VTL, this is one available, and if it provides what I am looking for, most likely purchase it. But, I am also thinking McIntosh C2600, primarily as McIntosh has been used in show demos by Totem Acoustic when they demoed the Element Metal Speakers. And, I had an old McIntosh receiver which sounded great. .....until total failure after about 60,000 hours of running sometimes 24 hours per day for nearly twenty years.

But, it is all about trying this stuff in my system, my room, my ears. And, the suggestions are all appreciated. Even if I drive Porsches....

I do have a huge advantage as well.... no WAF:yahoo1:
 
Msmoto said:
I think I love you guys.... Of course there are not a lot of female audio freaks, so my presence may amaze you. But, I will audition the VTL, this is one available, and if it provides what I am looking for, most likely purchase it. But, I am also thinking McIntosh C2600, primarily as McIntosh has been used in show demos by Totem Acoustic when they demoed the Element Metal Speakers. And, I had an old McIntosh receiver which sounded great. .....until total failure after about 60,000 hours of running sometimes 24 hours per day for nearly twenty years.

But, it is all about trying this stuff in my system, my room, my ears. And, the suggestions are all appreciated. Even if I drive Porsches....

I do have a huge advantage as well.... no WAF:yahoo1:
Click to expand...

Ms. Tommie Lauer, I do like you because you have a sense of humor. You might really be a 90 year old man in a nursing home with access to a computer, but either way, you have earned my respect.
 
Here is a photo of my "nursing home room"...:celebrate008_2:

Tee Ve or Not Tee Ve_01.05.2017_TFL-1 by Tommie Lauer, on Flickr


And, at present, having just measured my frequencies from about 20 - 200 Hz, I am discovering I need to bring the speakers out into the room more as I now have a huge bump at about 40 - 50 Hz. I may play with some large foam as well.

I like the heavy lower end, organ music comes alive... Like Virgil Fox Live at Fillmore East...when he says "a happening" he means it!

I am gathering in the idea of doing many trials prior to purchasing anything. As I have an old Theta DS Pro Basic II sitting around, I am going to place that in the line from the Vault 2, coaxial into the Theta, single ended into current No.38. Second trial will possibly be an old McIntosh C28 Pre amp, just to get an idea of what differences are made by changing out stuff.

What I have currently is an almost holographic sound stage, very detailed musically intimate sound from 20 - 20,000 Hz. What I am seeking is a softening, warming of the mid and highs as the "digital" sound with the current configuration is not the perfection i have in mind.

With that I will begin my exploration of various pieces of equipment and report back what my ears are telling me.
Thanks
 
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