Tube Experience 101

wisnon

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Hi all, I open this thread to allow people to give a generalization of their experiences with tubes. What designs they have tried, which they prefer and what is the driving philosophy behind their preferences. Many tube neophytes would find this a great stepping stone in their eveolving tube journey. Also, more experienced people could gain some deeper insight by sharing knowledge from different journeys. Tips are also very welcome, even if one cant expect prized tube secrets to be spilled out online…pointers rather than detailed listings is what I expect.

Things like factory over brand, or pentodes over double triodes, West Europe over Russian and Chinese, NOS over new production. Which new production is best and who are the rising stars there? Who makes the best rectifiers in general? Is EBAY a good source? Wghich brands are overrated?


Let me start by linking this about NOS vs new….Why NOS Tubes are better:

6moons industry features: A visit to BTB Elektronik
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Okay, but you inventory much which would seem of interest to the high-end valve lover. So what’s up with the NOS trend? I mean, really, isn’t it mostly retro? Telefunken simply looks cooler than Sovtek stamped on the glass? Or are there bona fide advantages of quality and sound? Are we really to believe that valve quality and production processes have devolved over time?

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[TD]The explanation is simple. In the 60s when valves enjoyed their halcyon days, the average German income was about 500 Deutsch Marks and an EL34 of the era sold for 15DM. If you transfer that relationship to 2012, an EL34 still sells for about €15 whilst the average income has come up to €3.000/month. It’s easy to see that tubes today are far more affordable. Hence the inverse is true too – price pressures on manufacturers are much higher today. Because valve production remains about 90% manual, you can’t compensate with automatization. In the past selection was much tighter and rejection ratios were far more generous. Today things make it to market which would have been trashed then. That’s why the quality of vintage valves tends to be quite high to make NOS much more than just a fascination with retro.
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Was this guy serious when he asked these questions??

Okay, but you inventory much which would seem of interest to the high-end valve lover. So what’s up with the NOS trend? I mean, really, isn’t it mostly retro? Telefunken simply looks cooler than Sovtek stamped on the glass? Or are there bona fide advantages of quality and sound? Are we really to believe that valve quality and production processes have devolved over time?

What does he think happened when most of the industrialized nations shut down tube production and sold off their manufacturing equipment used to make vacuum tubes? Most of the British gear ended up being sold to the Chinese and they have been struggling to make good tubes for well over 20 years and they initially had help from the British engineers. Russia had the advantage of never getting out of the tube manufacturing business which gave them a leg up on the Chinese. However, I don't know anyone who would trade a NOS Mullard XF1 or XF2 EL-34 for any Russian made EL-34.
 
Hi all, I open this thread to allow people to give a generalization of their experiences with tubes. What designs they have tried, which they prefer and what is the driving philosophy behind their preferences. Many tube neophytes would find this a great stepping stone in their eveolving tube journey. Also, more experienced people could gain some deeper insight by sharing knowledge from different journeys. Tips are also very welcome, even if one cant expect prized tube secrets to be spilled out online…pointers rather than detailed listings is what I expect..

I said this before: when i have SS in my system I always wonder how tubes would sound. When i have tubes in the system i always wonder what the next LP, digital file or whatever will sound like and think less about the hardware. imho, tube amplification removes one significant barrier to recreating that 'real' experience.

i've owned few exotics like SET and OTL amps, i've borrowed a few - even built a 300b-based amp - and heard plenty in dealers confines or shows. the vast majority of tube pre/power amps i've owned were based around 6dj8/12ax7/12au7/12at7/6922/6n7 small signal tubes and beam power pentodes like el84/el34/6550/kt88/kt/90/kt120. If you have the 'right' speaker, again, imho tubes are unbeatable. its when they're married with a difficult speaker load, do their faults snap clearly into focus but when the marriage is right its total bliss. lately i like lots of tube watts (200+ watts is a good start) it tends to remove the miss matched speaker thing from the equation..

i'm not too fussy about tube provenance but i'm no dummy, all things being equal i'd take NOS American/British/german tubes all day long. i also believe some tube suppliers do a very good job of selecting decent russian and chinese types - thats what i mostly use.
 
Wow........., a topic to which I do feel I've something worthwhile to add, it has been my experience over the course of the last 15 years in regards to tube rolling most if not all seem to use the olde Joe Tube Lore as casted in stone or the holy grail of tube knowledge if you will, there seems to be an on going fascination with the 3 European Sisters as mention on Vintage Tube Services, where most seem to think that if it isn't Amperex - Mullard or Telefunken then one doesn't own anything of worth.

Well, I for one beg to differ, as I began in back in 2003/04 buying up as many 12A_7 type variants as I'd afford, it took me to distant shores very few have traveled - I mean very few talk about what I hear as some of the most musical tubes ever built by the likes of two Japanese companies namely NEC ( Nippon Electric Company - Tokyo Japan ) whom were by one of two companies ( the other being Brimar STC U.K. ) to ever have ties with Western Electric and in fact can be viewed as my tube mentor taught me, that produced tubes that were renowned as the ones Western Electric themselves never built - like EL84 - EL34 - 6S_7 types along with 12A_7 types that were in fact not as colorized as said WE wares and actually are more neutral as well as transparent in nature and those whom have gone on to try them............, haven't looked back, while the second company is TEN Kobe Industries Corp ( Kyoto Japan ) which to my ears made some of the most quietest 12A_7 types I've heard/owned to date, and in fact produced what I in turn hear as the only 5751 ( 12AX7 Sub variant ) that actually didn't rob the musical notes of their dynamics, and yes........., I've gone through the RCA - CBS/Hytron - Sylvania - G.E. ( didn't hate them ) - Raytheon Black Plate w/. Square Getter both 2 and 3 mica version NOS 1949/56 and have found them all focused and quiet compared to standard 12AX7 tubes, yet once again had a weird manner of smothering the musical dynamics and overtones way to much for my likings. But as the olde adage goes YMMV.

As I hear/see it, some fail to misunderstand the worth of " Generalization " as it relates to tubes, as I've seen written very wisely I might add by one of the tube seller over on Audioasylum - who said something very true in - there's a tube for every circuit, and a curcuit for every tube.

Yet, I've gone one even further in not so much as asking for beta testers on the tubes I've found since said date that actually put the Euro Sisters into their rightful place, but actually beat them each into submission - I've purchased upwards to say 13 of each tube to which I've found to be extremely musical in as much as an uncolored manner as possible, here I'm referring to nonsweeten types that make music take on a more refined/forgiving/warmer/richer/creamier tone if you will, yet at the expense of inner detail - beauty and resolution, and glosses over the finer points of said musical passages robbing it of its truer state of transparency, while lacking that sense of snapping bass lines or defined fingering techniques as heard/felt by the better guitarist in the world as well as making it more difficult to distinguish between even a steel or nylon stringed guitar - not in my world you don't........... Yet most listeners seem to want one or the other, either warmer/creamier or more detailed/analytical sound, as opposed to strictly neutral and/or transparent because they're actually trying to counterbalance the effect of the coloration of their systems on a whole.

Yet, when one sits down and hears a system built first and foremost on neutrality and transparency - they've a certain look on their faces as if to offend, yet fail to understand they're actually listening to sometime without dynamic restrain that's telling the truth, good, bad or indifferently - yet to some the truth hurts.

As I'm the long-winded sort when it comes to expressing said topics that cause me to get a hard on, I'll merely say, that while some misunderstand the importance of tube factories being at the top of their list when buying tubes as opposed to the designer label, keep in mind that more often then not most NOS tube manufactures produced tubes between say 2 - 5 different factories in each country, so while you might be praising Telefunken based designs, ask yourself which factory made them - Berlin?, or Ulm?, as one offers better resolution then the other.

And let's then get onto the best sounding factory sound in regards to resolution and purity of the tubes made in Germany - here I'm talking Valvo Long Grey Plate w/. 45 degree slanted Foil Strip D Getter NOS 1953/56 as well as Lorenz E82CC/ECC802S Long Plates ( same period ) or even Siemens & Halske from said period as well, yet most continue praising Telefunken - because they merely never heard/owned any other the other brands to know the truth of the matter for themselves, they can be better quite easily I can assure you.

And lastly............, my favorite two 12AX7 brands bar none, that I've continued to own, and sell freaking boat loads of to those with ears..........., as I then ship as far away as Indonesia as a means of getting feedback on my findings, and you know what................, I'm talking 73 pairs and not a one of them was returned, as said individual were capable of hearing exactly what I felt they would, and here I'm referring to cats with upwards of $400.000 systems, said brands are Tungsram ( Hungary ) and Thomson - CSF - Minatron ( France ), and I'll add one more to said list, that I'm almost certain very few are aware of!, but should be, it's a company called Polam/Telam from Poland, whom tubes would've most breaking into tears seconds into one track.

O_oh, and why aren't more people familiar with how great tubes from the likes of Ken-Rad and Westinghouse 12A_7 type tubes from say 1953/56 are?, because they're blinded by BS Designer Labels, and haven't listened, that's why.

O_oh, well I promised that I'd shorten this.........., so let me save some for another day! but add beside current production power tubes.............., which were designed around modern tube gear which requires greater bandwidth as well as snap and detail! their preamp tubes be damned, in my mind if the input/preamp/signal tubes aren't olde school made between 1951/54 followed by their second slightly more perfected prototypes between 1955/57 and ending with the ones made from 1959/62 then you haven't heard your gear, of the ones made say upwards of 1973, only said Tungsram ( Orion ) - RFT - Thomson - CSF make the grade.

Nuff 'said.


Thanks for starting this thread Norman, I love this sort of shite.........., until next time.
 
I find it quite amazing that so many of you here own tube components, yet can't find time to add to this topic. It's not as hard to discuss and one would think, if you just speak on what you like/hear!, this isn't about challenging anyone's preferences in so much as seeing which of you knows your stuff as far as I'm concerned!, yet it seems.............., that one of the guys with one of the most modest systems amongst you all, has done his homework and sits at the head of the class rightfully so.

Knowledge is power, eh!.
 
Oscar, with all respect, I was the kid smoking at break & doing dope to Pink Floyd's latest when i finally managed to get the hell away from home! found loud music where my dad didn't give me a kick in the ass for doing things too loud when living on my own time & money, paid for it ever since & given many governments some too in taxes. Unfortunately I am not retired & don't have the time to gather a knowledge as of yours in the "tube". I really wish i had though, for me it's baby steps at the mo, but, i dare say that extremely good post of yours above has probably left most with a dislocated jaw. I will be in touch by the way as I have a LM 219ia inbound & am very interested in what you would recommend to go to the top of the chain in AAAA+ tubes for it. Thanks for sharing.....
 
Some differing views from another forum:

The real issue here is that your gear is using a 12AX7 and 12AU7 in the
first place. Most of them suck, plain and simple. There are only a few of them
that sound good. I know... Broad statement, based on my findings with them. IMO,
YMMV...

The Amperex tubes are good, but I find them a tad soft for my
tastes. They emphasize the midrange, particularly the upper midrange more, and
are softer at the extremes. They have great presence, image well, but this could
easily tip the balance of your system.

I'd go for regular Mullard tubes
before Amperex myself. They at least get the balance right.

The only
other 12AX7 besides the 10m I would consider is a 5751. GE and RCA would be my
top pics. Either grey or black plate, 2 mica or triple mica. They are all about
the same to me, but really good nonetheless. These don't last as long, but will
give much of the 10M performance for less dough. They also do not work well in
all gear that requires a 12AX7. They will either work wonderfully or not. Bottom
line, the 5751 is a fantastic tube, if it works well in your gear.

12AU7
tubes, with a couple acceptions, suck. Just not a very linear sounding tube. The
7318 stands well above them all. I'll even say that the 7318 is one of the best
small signal tubes you can use. If one has the headroom on heater current, your
closest alternative would be a 12BH7 or ECC99. These will tax most gear though
as they draw double the current, or more, that the 12AU7 does. With these big
plate tubes, good luck finding some quiet ones also.

I like linearity,
speed, big dynamic contrasts, focus, 3D holographic imaging, bass slam, and
vibrancy. No glare, spit, graininess, or flab. Simply put, I want it crystal
clear and like live music. Well, like I envision live music should be at least
;)

The 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318 really nail this better than any other of
these I have tried, and they translate the same to every piece of gear I have
tried them in that uses 12AX7/12AU7's. They just so happen to be very tough long
lasting tubes that are very rare and pricey. Damn the luck :)

Best thing?
Find gear that does not use a 12AX7 or a 12AU7. Lots of better tubes out there
that are much cheaper than the best 12AX7/12AU7.

and

I have just received some confirmatory feedback to what you say from a trusted
industry participant in the high end of the market:

"I am not a fan of
the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design
(two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel
and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or
amplification stages).

That said, this is the extreme purist point of
view.

A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver ,
even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more
performance on top.

So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind
(most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only
later double triodes, as they were cheaper.

I would look for a pre with a
minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply.
According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy
haze" .

However, if you use digital only, I would got straight out of the
dac into the power amp. If the tube output stage of the dac is properly designed
for direct drive, any additional preamp should not be necessary and in fact
will
add haze and time- smear to the sound.
 
More from the Gon:

Try some 5751's in place of the 12AX7. GE or RCA any type. My favorite is the
50's version of the GE, which is a triple mica black plate with D getter. This
early version can be identified by mica retainer clips above and below the inner
2 mica's. This one is very close to the 10M, if a 5751 works out in your
circuit. I'd stay away from the Sylvania's. They are typically forward
sounding.

12AU7? Since you have no extra heater current to spare, and you
can't use a 12BH7A, I can't think of any that will give you what you want. 7318
is it. Sorry :(

I understand you are worried about reliability and not
being able to find more of these rare tubes, but I still recommend the Mullard
10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318 for what you are trying to accomplish. You want what I
want, and what most other people want out of their system. Chances are, your CD
player is putting the tubes in a pretty light duty situation. They will likely
last 30 years or more if you get truly NOS of these. That's how tough these
suckers are. Yes, rare and pricey, but will last and be head and shoulders above
all others of this type sonically. Spend the money. Don't sweat the petty
things, and don't pet the sweaty things :)
 
Still more:

For 12AX7, the Mullard 10M are damn hard to beat. Very linear, focused, and
dimensional.

12AU7, there is only one that will keep up with the 6SN7,
and that is the CBS 7318. This was CBS answer to the audio grade Telefunken
ECC802S. Ultra rare. I have tried them all, and this tube works well in any
12AU7 circuit. Nothing comes close.

Either of these tubes last a very
long time. I have a set of 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318's in my amps that have been
cooking for over 5 years, and they still test like the day I put them
in.

I know where some of the 7318's are, but they are pricey.
============================

I have heard that Telefunken tubes are clean and quite but quite "dead"
sounding!

Phillips/Siemens/Mullard/Brimar/Valvo/certain Teslas might be
better options. In general for the small tubes, I have heard that the W.
Europeans are the best choice and for rectifiers, the vintage Americans are the
best. This I get from a pal with 25 years experience in tube rolling and he is
based in Eastern europe.
============================

You really need to try the CBS 7318. The 10M 12AU7 is a great tube, and would be
my 2nd or 3rd choice for a 12AU7, but as I stated, there is no other 12AU7 that
will touch the 7318, and I have tried them all, quite literally. This translates
to every piece of gear I have tried them in that requires a 12AU7 as well,
including phono sections.

Stocks of them depleted before the internet,
and this is when they were very popular. That said, there is very little info
about them anywhere to speak of, nor can you find any of them for
sale.

===============
12AU7….is that the ECC82?

If so, I agree the Mullards are great and
failing that, get Tungsram, Tesla, or Phillips (not miniwatt).
================
Your 10M 12AU7 is getting tough to find and is a stellar sounding tube also, so
you appreciate the finer tubes. I would have never mentioned it if they were
totally unobtainable and cost prohibitive.

==================
If the 5814 will not work in your player, the 12BH7 surely will not. It draws
exactly double the heater current that the 12AU7 does.

I seriously doubt that the 5814 will do any harm to your situation. It only draws a fraction more heater current than a normal 12AU7.

To answer, the 10M 12AX7 is far and
away my favorite 12AX7. Smokes the Telefunken for sure. They are pricey also
though...

Some of the better 5751 tubes will compete sonically, but I
have found no better 12AX7 than the 10M Mullard. Very 3D, extended, with deep
powerful bass. Also not as overly warm as the typical Mullards.

Another
great tube is the 1950's version of the GE Black Plate 5751's. This tube gets
damn close to the 10M, but they don't last near as long.

The 7318 is the
best 12AU7 I have tried. Beats 12BH7, ECC99, or any other brand or variant you
can think of. It is very special, and yes, it is big on tone, just like the
6SN7.


 
KT-77,

Do you mind chipping in with 3 and 4th tier choices for the ECC8xx class of tubes and same for EL34 and EL84 classes? These could very well be the value for money plays.
 
I have tried them all - KT88/EL34/K120/300b/845/211/etc., etc. I have tried Push-pull, SET, OTL and hybrid.

My favorites are my SET Cary 805AE amps (using GE 211 tubes, WE 300b) and my OTL Music Reference OTL-1. I thoroughly enjoyed my hybrid McIntosh 2301's as well.

Technically, I prefer SET over push-pull for the reasons indicated here: Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!

As for tubes, I much prefer NOS vs new production. I find the new Russian tubes generally sound hard and the new Chinese tubes sound bright and thin. There are exceptions, but this is a general rule. NOS tubes are sought out and raise in value for a reason: they are the best sounding, best made, longest lasting.

Once you hear a good SET, it's hard to go back to any push-pull. OTL's get you one step closer to the music and performers. SET's will emotionally involve you.

Too many push-pull amp designers today are shooting for neutrality (no coloration) and tube amps which ultimately exhibit SS characteristics (more top end extension, more bottom end extension - and stretching out the mid range in the process). In the end, many times, they end up with an amp that sounds like a bad 80's Solid State amp (example: VTL).

This isn't to say you can't make a SET amp sound bad too, I'm sure there are some out there. But generally speaking, SET's are what I envision when I think of a proper sounding tube amp.

If you understand the fundamental difference between SET's and PP's....it will make sense why SET's usually sound better.

Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!
 
Oscar, with all respect, I was the kid smoking at break & doing dope to Pink Floyd's latest when i finally managed to get the hell away from home! found loud music where my dad didn't give me a kick in the ass for doing things too loud when living on my own time & money, paid for it ever since & given many governments some too in taxes. Unfortunately I am not retired & don't have the time to gather a knowledge as of yours in the "tube". I really wish i had though, for me it's baby steps at the mo, but, i dare say that extremely good post of yours above has probably left most with a dislocated jaw. I will be in touch by the way as I have a LM 219ia inbound & am very interested in what you would recommend to go to the top of the chain in AAAA+ tubes for it. Thanks for sharing.....

Good Day Kev,

It wasn't my intent to call anyone out on this, in so much as trying to start a conversation as a means of seeing what others like?, and why?. My quest with tubes began in 2003, yet I had owned tube gear as early as 1989, but at the time didn't know jack and ended up selling off pieces like a CAL Aria MK II CD player - Cary 300B-SEI and Sweet 807 and Audible Illusions M3A, but in doing so would later hear each piece in the persons home I sold them to..........., singing their behinds off, and didn't understand why I couldn't get to preform in this manner.

Yet, it took me until said 2003, and about $3.700 worth of signal tubes later to fully understand the voicing process needed with said devices, but as I'm awaiting my in home care physician to stop by, I've every intent on coming back shortly afterwards and extend even more on this matter............, and if?, you're wiling to trust my ears/taste/research?, then dude, do I've some worthwhile tube recommendations for you............., so until then, watch this space.
 
KT-77,

Do you mind chipping in with 3 and 4th tier choices for the ECC8xx class of tubes and same for EL34 and EL84 classes? These could very well be the value for money plays.

Norman,

After said doctors visit, I'd be honored to do just that............, until then.
 
I know Oscar. It was just a placeholder for you...a drumrool, if you like. LoL
 
Oscar,

I sincerely appreciate all your tube knowledge. I try and do the "safe" thing but probably miss out on a lot of great tubes. Good luck with the Dr. and thanks again.

:)
 
i only use tube gear, and in the past ive bought and sold loads of them(tubes, and amps and preamps). and yes i buy the big names, because that is what i was taught. mullard,tele,mazda,rca,brimar,amperex, new production, nos, and used, ect ect.
basically knowing not much about them aside from their said sonic signature. buy em try em if i dont love them , sell them. ive had a few suggestions from very knowledgeable tube guys in the past that were some good, some very good, and some not right for my setup.
so i have not much to add to this thread.lol.
this allnic gear im presently running uses some weird tubes and are impossible to find any, so rolling is not an option. the phonostage came stock with nos mullard e180cc(12AV7) and the integrated comes with some pcl86(14gw8)driver tubes. which again i cant find anywhere. so it makes it easy for me, just keep those in there and only thing i can try is new 300b's. which im on my 6th or 7th set (not all with this amp) ,and am very happy with the kr xls's. that are presently in there.
i cant ever tell you which factory or what side of the street tubes were made on , or any of that info. but i can tell you what i liked in certain gear that ive had in the past.
i can tell you not to buy tubes from china on ebay, any ive tried or any one i know has tried came in broke or bad or just not worth it.
 
I know Oscar. It was just a placeholder for you...a drumrool, if you like. LoL


And........., here we go.



Tubes Le' Finale Frontier.


Okay where were we?.


Once again, I've to thank my tube mentor over the course of the last 15 years from the Hong Kong Tube Audio Group c/o. Yahoo, a Mr. Adrian Foo, whom has taught me to think outside the box and venture outwards to tubes which many simply haven't heard, or misunderstand how they should be used, as the reality of the matter is using them in tandem with other brands whether European ones for their delicate nature along side American made ones which offer a bolder, more pronounced presentation that when done correctly?, creates a collective whole that maximizes on one another's strengths, while minimizing their weaknesses - hence a wholistic approach to voicing ones system according to their preferences as it relates to resolution as well as sonic purity.


As far as 12A_7 types go:


(1) the NEC ( Tokyo Japan ) rank as number one in my book, and offer a sound that has no sound at all if you will, as it merely gives you what your preamp or integrated has to offer, yet it is used in tandem with tubes of various sonic differences as a means of emphasizing every little nuance presented in a more natural manner that only few have heard/felt.


(2) Would've to be a pair of Philips Ned. Instituut voor Fysisch Onderzoek 1955 (k6P dX) long welded grey plates, angled D-getter with no crossbar. But as stated earlier on, just how many have heard there, compared to say the more common versions from Heerlen, Holland or Copenhagen Demark?, as their factor sounds are much more important then the name stuck on the boxes/glass would ever indicate.


(3) This honor goes to the Valvo Hamburg 1954-1955 (DX k6X old code) long grey crimped ribbed plate, double mica, foil Strip - angled D-getter, forget about those often overrated Telefunken ECC802S based tubes, this is clearly a giant step above them in regards to refinement - purity and resolution as if an actual human being is not only standing in the room with you..........., but she's standing right next to you so closely you can smell she perfume.


(4) I'm going to go out on a limb here, as these are one of my favorites bar none, and I still have at least another 18 pairs I'd love to obtain before the supplies dry up, and at some point it will - and add Tungsram produced in Tilburg, Holland late 1950s-early 1960s short grey welded plates with metal tab, double mica, metal tab on plate, red internal wiring, double getter support, foil O-getter with two elongated dimples [parasol getter]. And here they're most commonly found as the versions made in Hungary.


(5) Telam/Polam made in Warsaw Poland NOS 1954/58, simply have to be heard to be believed, the problem is finding them, but once you've heard these............., you'll understand what sonic refinement and richest is all about, and so much so, you'll start to look at tubes from the likes of Amperex and Mullard quite differently.


(6) At the lower end/cost of the spectrum, and more commonly found, yet still deserving of attention are names like -


RFT - Ken-Rad ( Kentucky Radio versions produced before G.E. Took over in 1954 ) and Westinghouse which I've noticed many simply haven't mentioned in the least, yet are clearly much much much better sonically top to bottom then the bit boys in American tube designs namely RCA - Sylvania - Raytheon - Tung-Sol and said G.E versions, it's not even close.


EL84 types:


(1) Polam/Telam EL84 NOS 1964/74 are equal to anything that either of the Philips owned companies ever made, here I'm referring to the likes of those Amperex and Mullard D - Getter versions made during the 1950s only, as to my ears anything made after 1962 had it sonic signatures lost in the mix as companies simply didn't want to invest into the R&D matters anymore with the introduction of transistors starting to become more and more in demand ( which to me, was a grave mistake or fuck up, if I'm allowed to get that one off my chest? ). So far, I've collected 13 quads of these, and Abso!utely wouldn't be without them in my life, these in tandem with said Tungsram signal/preamp tubes as mentioned earlier on with have any grown ass man crying for hours and hours as heard with any vocalist male or female, and trust me I'm one of those big ass 6'6" 275lb black versions of Brock Lesnar ( the difference is, I can actually fight instead of having to take someone to the mat ) and an Ex-Marine to boot, and hold a record of 78 knock outs and 2 loses, and can admit that even if it's George Michael singing Jesus To A Child or some olde school Jazz Female Vocalist..............., my big ass is crying right in front of the wife ( and could care less ) or waving my lighter back and fourth as if at a live event, this is one of the most moving combination of tubes I've ever owned/heard to date, call me biased, but if noting else - this olde cat can hear how music should be heard - on an emotional level, and fuck Hi-Fi effects, it has to speak to my inner being and have a human element to it, lest it serves me not..........


(2) NEC 6B5Q NOS 1958/64 ( Tokyo Japan ) All I can say here is.................., if you need them?, and can find them?, fucking buy them without taking another breathe, and thank me later............, see above mention of this line of tubes on a whole, colorization lovers, need not apply, these are about neutrality and transparency above all else, and will once again place you that much closer to the heavens, and within arms reach of the Creator himself.


EL34 types:


As many rate the Philips owned companies ( including Amperex/Mullard ) once again as the bees knee when it comes to said designs. I'd said that at a greater savings try the following brands and thank me later, unless you like microphonic tubes that is?.


(1) Tesla EL34 or more rugged E34L Reddish Brown Base versions made between 1960/68 w/. Yellow Text/Logo made in Czechoslovakia - as these have the best top to bottom frequency response I've ever heard - period. And as I've gone by one form or another of said power tubes, as my username on various forums since 1998, I've been through about 18 different makes of these tubes, and have loved them, but began upon listening to my now current favorite integrated amp which uses EL84s, how much was actually missing with these tubes, I mean they offer hell of a great sounding midrange and all, but rolled off both the tops and bottom ends to much for me to go back to, as said EL84s in some sense remind me of the snap - nimbleness and directness I've heard from the likes of triode tubes like the 45s and 2A3s as compared to 300Bs, that weren't as delicate or glossed over the midrange with its wonderful presence and all - but they offered speed and resolution to my ears beat the crap out of any given 300B SET amp I'm heard to date including what I've always felt were to of the better designs out there in Art Audio as well as Border Patrol makes. Longer story shorter ( it's not gonna happen ), these tubes are the shit ( oops!, my bad on the language - but it's the truth ).


(2) Matshita EL34 ( Takatsuki, Japan )


Which are basically similar in sound to any of the Philips based companies wares once again, but at an even greater savings - Nuff 'Said,


(3) SED Winged =C= ( NOS 1989/2009 versions )


What can I say about these?, well I'll make this tale even shorter if you don't mind ( I knew you wouldn't ) I had been an avid user of these since 2003, and had a very hard time even wishing to own another Philips based family owned quad of EL34s, as I began to noticed just how closely these tubes mimicked their good and bad points to a " T ", while some might say, O_oh, they are weak in their top and bottom end, in truth most EL34s all were............., unless one wishes to get me started on KT77s?, which I'd much prefer to save something to bring up for another day if it's okay.


Once again, while I've seen it mentioned here on a Shindo Labs thread, how one posted stated that Shindo lacks PRAT, shit..............., I beg to differ, as someone coming out of the 80s/90s and up until 2012 has been firmly rooted into the Linn/Naim Flat-Earth mindset, PRAT are nothing more then Hi-Fi lingo ( pun intended ) for what some see/hear as the greater strengths of solid state designs, yet one has to ask themselves when comparing then to tube designs, which then sound more natural?, or offers more beauty or texture?, then it becomes less of a matter of nimbleness or the snap - crackle pop show ( because in hindsight that's all it is ), but hearing these tubes in both a Leben CS-600 followed by a a Shindo Labs Montrachet was all it took for me to look at my ex-Asian buddies ( yeah, shit happens and then you wake up ) and go " WTF " and guys I'm taking what I've to say was a prefect balance of a life breathing musician/artist standing right there...................., once again I'd literally smell Sade's perfume and could even tell she rinsed with strawberry flavored Scope ( if there ever was a thing? ), and came away thinking out loud I might add..............., if it's good enough for these two very different sounding amps, which freaked me the fuck out ( not easy to do , and once again, my bad on the use of wordage, but it's the only way I can express where it draws others attention ) then it's good enough to be used in others.


And on an added note, I've to say that being the practical sort that I'm , there's a difference between this and being cheap, but if I'd have the funds I had yesteryear while I was employed instead of relying on say half of that on disability......................, at the very least a Shindo Apetite ( because of my newfound love towards EL84s as mentioned elsewhere ) would have been sitting on my amp stand as I'm typing this, for those that listen to components effects instead of judging how they relate the finer points on a purely emotional or musical level, then I stand on the other side of the fence, and will always pursue musicality - tonality - texture - refinement - truth of pitch and timbre and beauty to PRAT any day of the week, this shit breathes music, and to my mindset, has something very special going on.


So, that's my tale for now, and please try not to hold my biases against me, as they're meant to be just that, my opinions after years of research and then re-learning what to listen for!, and how it should be heard/felt on an emotional level, and listening to sound effects don't fucking do it for me, oops!, sorry once again for being overly passionate about said matters as to let such words get out.


Be well guys........., as my doctor arrives at 2:00 PM, I really do have to go this time.
 
Oscar,

I sincerely appreciate all your tube knowledge. I try and do the "safe" thing but probably miss out on a lot of great tubes. Good luck with the Dr. and thanks again.

:)

Joe,

Thank you, and know that I know your fears, but I also know your heart - but lest you call me out on this, and at the very least sample my wares/knowledge on tubes!, then you still won't know the truth of the matter, at which point, you can tell me I'm right or wrong?, and let others know either way!, dude............, on this subject as well as jazz labels and isolation devices/platforms I've to pride myself of and say these are areas where I've done my home works and have passed with straight A's, I know this shite.

and as always - Thank you for just being.................., 'U. And your welcome Joey.
 
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