Top Tier Amps

AVphile said:
Topics like this are always both interesting -- and frustrating -- to read. My primary complaint about a topic like "Top Tier Amplifiers" is its extraordinary subjectivity. We all know that what we hear is not an individual component; rather, it is a system -- which means its output is impacted not only by each component's individual performance but also by the manner in which each interacts with all of the system's other components. In fact, the only way there would be any validity to an assessment of a particular component's quality of performance would be to establish a "control" system as the baseline standard and then introduce (in this case, the subject amplifier) the component being assessed and then replacing, one by one, that amplifier with the amplifiers of its assumed competitors.

The secondary problem, of course, is that it is, in fact, absurd to assume (1) that the performance of one model of a manufacturer's line of amplifiers is equaled by the performance of all of its other amplifiers and (2) that the performance of the subject amplifier in the control system would be equaled by its performance in all other systems -- insofar as how the output from that system's loudspeakers actually sounds.

This is the basis of my underlying gripe in all subjective-based reviews where a component is inserted and audibly evaluated without any comparison to similar components of its primary competitors or how it impacts the sound in any other system. I wish that the leading reviewers maintained a "control" system and then did a comparison of a number of, say, DACs. All we consumers have now is a cacophony of individual opinions of individual components over a period of time. I have to also say that, while I don't think that objective instrumentation-based reviews are the definitive answer, I do think that John Atkinson's tests in Stereophile are of some indisputable value.
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I dunno seems pretty academic, what amps does one consider top tier
, its not calculus ...!!!


Just saying :)
 
a.wayne said:
PDK transmissions are not new to porsche, as they used them at leman as far back as 1984, so very unlikely Nissan forced Porsche to do didley crap , much less eat Porsche's at the track ..

That would be leading from behind :roflmao:
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The racing world adopted PDK/SMG, etc well before amateur wanna-be's would accept anything with less than 3 pedals from the assembly line because the racing world realized that "automatic" manuals provided split-second advantages over the old-fashioned heel-toe dance. Upon it's debut in stock form in the late aughts, Nissan claimed some Porsche-beating times at the Nordschleife for their GT-R. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Porsche and a bevy of other performance car manufacturers started trending away from manual clutch soon thereafter ...
 
a.wayne said:
PDK transmissions are not new to porsche, as they used them at leman as far back as 1984, so very unlikely Nissan forced Porsche to do didley crap , much less eat Porsche's at the track ..

That would be leading from behind :roflmao:
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Porsche had developed PDK transmissions but only used them for their race cars. They only started using it in their street cars after Nissan brought the GTR to the USA in 2008 with a dual clutch transmission. And regarding the Porsche Turbo not being able to catch up the stock GTR, I actually saw that (in 2009 at VIR).
 
jethropugh said:
Your wine analogy is not correct. I was in the business and I can tell you that oenophiles usually like to taste blind. It does two things, it exposes overpriced wines and sharpens the palate. Regarding wine lists, lesser known wines usually carry a higher markup since it's harder to price shop them. Santa Margarita PG for example is on every Italian list at every crummy restaurant. The patrons know exactly how much it costs at retail and determine whether or not it's worth it based on what they can buy it for in a store. Higher priced wines (collectibles) generally carry a lower % markup due to the overall price tag. Generally restaurants have a formula, markups are usually 2 1/2 times the wholesale price and on by the glass programs the first glass will usually cover the cost of the bottle and the rest is profit. There is a lot of waste so in their minds it justifies the higher margin.
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Thanks for the edification on the blind testing habits of oenophiles.

Unless you are in the business or are only considering fairly well known wines, most non-oenophile patrons (myself included) do not know the street value of wines. I actually rely heavily on apps such as Vivino to help me explore the wine lists at restaurants. Recently, I was at a Spanish restaurant that had a very large selection of wines. The had some very expensive wines on the list (including several vintages of Vega Cecilia some priced at several thousands dollars a bottle). I ended up enjoying a 2015 Xi'Lpal Syrah (rated 4.3 at Vivino). Never had heard of that brand; so I have to thank Vivino for helping me find a highly-rated wine for less than half of similarly rated wines on the wine list.

Since you were in the business, one request, if you don't mind. About 10 years ago, I was at a Restaurant that had this item (see picture) on the list. I always wondered what was the actual value of that 3 Liter bottle and what markup they actually had on it.
 

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pdub said:
The racing world adopted PDK/SMG, etc well before amateur wanna-be's would accept anything with less than 3 pedals from the assembly line because the racing world realized that "automatic" manuals provided split-second advantages over the old-fashioned heel-toe dance. Upon it's debut in stock form in the late aughts, Nissan claimed some Porsche-beating times at the Nordschleife for their GT-R. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Porsche and a bevy of other performance car manufacturers started trending away from manual clutch soon thereafter ...
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Im sure its more than coincidence , its customer demand , clutchless (actually it’s pedal less ) always changing Nordi laptimes had nothing to do with their decisions, in fact in the past most porsche customers demanded analog because they actually like to shift gears , like myself and have very little interest in paddle shifting , so while i do both my preference is to pull a stick and shift , nothing to do with a flash in the pan GTR times ..

1. Recent story we took a early GT3 race car to shake down after a restoration and asked one of our associated pro drivers to give it a few laps he got in and 5laps later came in to report all felt well we checked it over and he then requested if he could put in some more laps , well 15 laps later we flagged him in again and he was all smiles he hadnt driven an analog car in awhile and was having fun ( his words ) it was fantastic to use all 3 pedals again and pull a stick ..!

Long and short we had 3 other pro drivers beg the owner for a few laps before we ended it all to put the car away .

More Porsche owners will do laps or will be involved actively in driving clubs than GTR owners , the demand for shifting their cars are high its not non existent pressure from a Nissan GTR..

2. The move to paddle shifting has more to do with advancements in the electronics and safety control , its much easier to program traction and launch control , auto downshift blips and sequential flat shifting, without the additional clutch pedal , especially as the cars become faster and more difficult to drive for budding weekend racing Audiophiles at the control..

We have and are also adding these systems to older race cars including prototypes , because our weekend racers find them easier to drive fast and have control , auto throttle blip, traction control with flat shift cut blah blah require , no demand all this tech not an arbitrary GTR laptime Safety is tue main reason its trickling out unto street cars , So Nissan owners can safely speed along and rejoice ..!

You couldn't drive that tank of a car at speeds its capable of without it ..! :)

Its an apples to oranges compare , cheese to chalk really ...!




Regards
 
nicoff said:
Porsche had developed PDK transmissions but only used them for their race cars. They only started using it in their street cars after Nissan brought the GTR to the USA in 2008 with a dual clutch transmission. And regarding the Porsche Turbo not being able to catch up the stock GTR, I actually saw that (in 2009 at VIR).
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Thats Just so silly , so Nissan is pushing Porsche tech :roflmao:
 
A 3 liter La Tache is VERY rare. Anything larger than a 750 gets bottled by hand so they're expensive to produce. Right now a 3L would probably run 50k or so at retail. If you can afford it, it's an amazing wine from a great vintage in Burgundy. I don't know the retail of hand from 10 years ago but it was high and the markup isn't multiples of the base price, it's percentage points. I would never personally. I think there's plenty of great juice for less but some people feel they're on the earth for a short time and want to experience everything they can.
 
a double magnum 1990 la tache these day would be sold most likely via auction and be over 100k.
i had (unfortunately drunk and cocked with it) multiple romanee contis from the 90s. la tache was a dissapointment, loved the richebourgs and grand echezeauxs.
these days, DRCs are investments and for collectors, not meant to drink. they get stored, get undrinkable and more expensive.
 
My point of this thread was to show that brands have a certain “status” associated to them in the marketplace. If someone says “Ferrari”, they think a higher status than “Kia”. That was the whole point I was trying to make. I was not discussing sound, but rather customer and market perception of a brand name.

I put my own amps (NAIM) as tier 3, so…

It’s not a commentary on one particular amp Vs another. That’s a whole other subject. And yes, there are names that can move up or down based on markets, segments and individual perceptions.

As for wine, I’m sure there are certain vineyards which when you say the name, conjures up a perception of a higher quality wine. Take Caymus for example. This particular batch in stores now is not good. But it probably won’t change the overall status of the name.


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